5 ms·

So is prison meant to reform or punish? Life without parole clearly means the person will never renter society, so there’s no point in reforming. It’s just puni

So is prison meant to reform or punish? Life without parole clearly means the person will never renter society, so there’s no point in reforming. It’s just punishment. So why not allow the guy to read literature? Or is it because that would be enjoyable for inmates, and we want them to be punished? But the analogy of a tree falling in the woods and no one around to hear it is apt. I can’t think of a single time I’ve contemplated how prisoners are punished and thought “man it’s so great they’re sitting in there bored out of their minds, this makes my life so much better and I feel happy about it.” They’re completely removed from society, they may as well be on Mars. It has no bearing on me or anyone else whether they’re having a good or shit miserable time. They will never leave, they will die in there. Can’t they just read a goddamn book if they want to?

insane_dreamer 4y ago
Exactly. I think we discount just how horrible of a punishment it is just to be locked up for your entire life (or even just for decades). No need to also treat them like shit.
gcanyon 4y ago
This is the part that kills me -- solitary is bad, solitary with no books is torture.
Kamq 4y ago
> So is prison meant to reform or punish? Both, and some other stuff. Traditionally, the justice system is supposed to have 5 recognized goals, they are: deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution deterrence is about preventing others from breaking the law (this one is not about the incarcerated individual, but about currently law-abiding citizens outside of prison) incapacitation is about preventing harm to society by completely removing certain people from it rehabilitation is reasonably obvious. That being said, there are traditionally considered some people who are "beyond rehabilitation". From this view, that's not ideal, but still not the end of the world, as prison in these cases has value for several of the other reasons described. retribution is about making the victim (or victim's family) feel better by inflicting pain on the guilty. This is a combination of explicit revenge, and keeping buy-in from the local populace by making them feel like the system is just, and keeping them feeling secure/valued. restitution is just about financial payments to make up what the victim has lost. If someone steals your car, having them buy you a new car, plus pay some amount extra for your time is generally seen as a reasonably fair solution. This one doesn't necessarily involve prison unless the defendant refuses to pay.
- DavidWoof 4y ago
  Are you considering penitence to be a subset of rehabilitation? There's a reason they're called penitentiaries, after all. Also, this is a nit but deterrence is usually considered to be about both the incarcerated individual and other citizens. Deterrence against re-committing the crime is an important part of incarceration, and I don't think it reasonably fits under rehabilitation.
  - Kamq 4y ago
    > Are you considering penitence to be a subset of rehabilitation? Yes, I would consider it part of the rehabilitation process. > Also, this is a nit but deterrence is usually considered to be about both the incarcerated individual and other citizens. This is fair. I was trying to draw the point that it's about people outside the prison (which the convict who may later re-offend would be when they're facing the choice to re-offend). I think I phrased this poorly/wrongly. Thanks for pointing it out.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Are you considering penitence to be a subset of rehabilitation? There's a reason they're called penitentiaries, after all. That reason is because “penance” is, in ecclesiastical law, the earthly penalty for sin, and a “penitentiary” is a place dedicated to the experience of those consequences. The connection to “penitence” (“the action of feeling sorry and regret for having done something wrong”) is more distant. (Also, the desire to cause penitence is more directly retribution, though it can be viewed as instrumental to rehabilitation.)
- nabakin 4y ago
  I think you hit it on the nose. I'm surprised by how many people here don't seem to know about these points
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > deterrence is about preventing others from breaking the law Deterrence is about preventing the offender (specific deterrence) or other people (general deterrence) from breaking the law through intimidation by making manifest the adverse consequences thereof. Rehabilitation is about preventing the offender from committing crimes by removing/reducing/counteractinf the inclination to do so (other than by intimidation.) Incapacitation is about preventing the offender from committing crimes by denying them capacity, to some degree or for some period. (Restitution and retribution are not aboit preventing crime.) In practice, the US tends to ignore the science and deterrence ans rehabilitation and not optimize for it, and marginalizes restitution in the criminal justice system, so thr criminal justice system is mostly about retribution and incapacitation.
flerchin 4y ago
In the most charitable interpretation, prisoners misbehave, and the guards can ensure compliance by taking away privileges. There is no reduction in sentence for good behavior, so other tools must be employed.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Segregation is basically prison-prison; there's not much else that can (legally) be done as a punishment once you're already in the can for life.
dahfizz 4y ago
I'm sure the family of the people this guy murdered appreciate that he is not getting pampered with their tax dollars.
sbierwagen 4y ago
>So is prison meant to reform or punish? As downtown SF is currently demonstrating, prison is also designed to separate. If you let violent criminals and the mentally ill sleep on the street and steal at will, it makes life much worse for everyone else than it makes life better for them.
- stemlord 4y ago
  Do the mentally ill belong in prison?
  - opportune 4y ago
    Mental illness isn't a valid excuse for antisocial behavior. Free treatment should be made available, and if it isn't used or not enough on its own, they should be put in "inpatient mental healthcare"
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - bergenty 4y ago
    Dangerous mentally ill people belong somewhere that isn’t on the streets. Bring back flop/workhouses and sanitariums.
cryoz 4y ago
It is designed to separate, to keep criminals away from the rest of society.
dpcan 4y ago
"So is prison meant to reform or punish?" I think it's meant to remove.
- stemlord 4y ago
  Wouldn't the death penalty be a cheaper solution then?
  - bergenty 4y ago
    Not everyone is removed forever. Also death is irreversible and the justice system does make mistakes.

insane_dreamer 4y ago

Exactly. I think we discount just how horrible of a punishment it is just to be locked up for your entire life (or even just for decades). No need to also treat them like shit.

gcanyon 4y ago

This is the part that kills me -- solitary is bad, solitary with no books is torture.

Kamq 4y ago

> So is prison meant to reform or punish? Both, and some other stuff. Traditionally, the justice system is supposed to have 5 recognized goals, they are: deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution deterrence is about preventing others from breaking the law (this one is not about the incarcerated individual, but about currently law-abiding citizens outside of prison) incapacitation is about preventing harm to society by completely removing certain people from it rehabilitation is reasonably obvious. That being said, there are traditionally considered some people who are "beyond rehabilitation". From this view, that's not ideal, but still not the end of the world, as prison in these cases has value for several of the other reasons described. retribution is about making the victim (or victim's family) feel better by inflicting pain on the guilty. This is a combination of explicit revenge, and keeping buy-in from the local populace by making them feel like the system is just, and keeping them feeling secure/valued. restitution is just about financial payments to make up what the victim has lost. If someone steals your car, having them buy you a new car, plus pay some amount extra for your time is generally seen as a reasonably fair solution. This one doesn't necessarily involve prison unless the defendant refuses to pay.

DavidWoof 4y ago
Are you considering penitence to be a subset of rehabilitation? There's a reason they're called penitentiaries, after all. Also, this is a nit but deterrence is usually considered to be about both the incarcerated individual and other citizens. Deterrence against re-committing the crime is an important part of incarceration, and I don't think it reasonably fits under rehabilitation.
- Kamq 4y ago
  > Are you considering penitence to be a subset of rehabilitation? Yes, I would consider it part of the rehabilitation process. > Also, this is a nit but deterrence is usually considered to be about both the incarcerated individual and other citizens. This is fair. I was trying to draw the point that it's about people outside the prison (which the convict who may later re-offend would be when they're facing the choice to re-offend). I think I phrased this poorly/wrongly. Thanks for pointing it out.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Are you considering penitence to be a subset of rehabilitation? There's a reason they're called penitentiaries, after all. That reason is because “penance” is, in ecclesiastical law, the earthly penalty for sin, and a “penitentiary” is a place dedicated to the experience of those consequences. The connection to “penitence” (“the action of feeling sorry and regret for having done something wrong”) is more distant. (Also, the desire to cause penitence is more directly retribution, though it can be viewed as instrumental to rehabilitation.)
nabakin 4y ago
I think you hit it on the nose. I'm surprised by how many people here don't seem to know about these points
dragonwriter 4y ago
> deterrence is about preventing others from breaking the law Deterrence is about preventing the offender (specific deterrence) or other people (general deterrence) from breaking the law through intimidation by making manifest the adverse consequences thereof. Rehabilitation is about preventing the offender from committing crimes by removing/reducing/counteractinf the inclination to do so (other than by intimidation.) Incapacitation is about preventing the offender from committing crimes by denying them capacity, to some degree or for some period. (Restitution and retribution are not aboit preventing crime.) In practice, the US tends to ignore the science and deterrence ans rehabilitation and not optimize for it, and marginalizes restitution in the criminal justice system, so thr criminal justice system is mostly about retribution and incapacitation.

flerchin 4y ago

In the most charitable interpretation, prisoners misbehave, and the guards can ensure compliance by taking away privileges. There is no reduction in sentence for good behavior, so other tools must be employed.

bombcar 4y ago
Segregation is basically prison-prison; there's not much else that can (legally) be done as a punishment once you're already in the can for life.

dahfizz 4y ago

I'm sure the family of the people this guy murdered appreciate that he is not getting pampered with their tax dollars.

sbierwagen 4y ago

>So is prison meant to reform or punish? As downtown SF is currently demonstrating, prison is also designed to separate. If you let violent criminals and the mentally ill sleep on the street and steal at will, it makes life much worse for everyone else than it makes life better for them.

stemlord 4y ago
Do the mentally ill belong in prison?
- opportune 4y ago
  Mental illness isn't a valid excuse for antisocial behavior. Free treatment should be made available, and if it isn't used or not enough on its own, they should be put in "inpatient mental healthcare"
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- bergenty 4y ago
  Dangerous mentally ill people belong somewhere that isn’t on the streets. Bring back flop/workhouses and sanitariums.

cryoz 4y ago

It is designed to separate, to keep criminals away from the rest of society.

dpcan 4y ago

"So is prison meant to reform or punish?" I think it's meant to remove.

stemlord 4y ago
Wouldn't the death penalty be a cheaper solution then?
- bergenty 4y ago
  Not everyone is removed forever. Also death is irreversible and the justice system does make mistakes.