4 ms·

I don't even know what to say after reading this, besides maybe that I would probably prefer dying over living a year like this. What an abhorrent way of treati

by simias 4y ago

I don't even know what to say after reading this, besides maybe that I would probably prefer dying over living a year like this. What an abhorrent way of treating a human being, or really any being at all.

jjcon 4y ago
I know what to say… how about… “don’t murder people if you want to live a good life”
- deltasevennine 4y ago
  You gotta take a higher perspective. Sure maybe those murderers deserve it. But what is the net benefit to society while those murderers are in prison and after those murderers are released? Ironically, research and actual events show that treating criminals with humanity actually yields a net benefit.
  - xeromal 4y ago
    I think excluding a murderer from participating in society is a solid choice for the safety of others. Not saying it's the most perfect solution to a problem, but it is a decent solution.
    - lucb1e 4y ago
      And keep them in cages indefinitely just in case the wrong person was convicted after all, or are you also for 'eye for an eye' at that point?
    - deltasevennine 4y ago
      Oh I'm not saying that they should be released. I'm asking about what's happening inside those prisons. And what happens to the prisoner after he's released from said environment. Is there a net benefit to society with the current status quo? I guess in short a better way to put it is this: Is the prisoner reformed and able to reintegrate with society?
- acjohnson55 4y ago
  And how's that working as a deterrent?
- imiric 4y ago
  We don't know what the circumstances were around the actions this individual did or did not do. The justice system can be as corrupt as any other government institution, where wrongful verdicts and convictions are made all the time. It takes years of costly uphill legal battles to dig yourself out of that hole, and many don't make it. That said, even if this person did commit the crime, I'm siding with GP here: what is the purpose of keeping a human being behind bars for life, if there's no chance they would eventually reintegrate into society? Solitary confinement in particular seems like a medieval torture device designed to drive people mad, rather than rehabilitate them. If the State wants to remove someone from society altogether, the death penalty is a more humane way of doing that. A life sentence makes no sense in this system, unless someone is benefiting from keeping prisoners alive. In many ways, this is just a modern form of slavery. Judging by this person's writing, they've somehow managed to rehabilitate themselves despite of their cruel living conditions, which is nothing short of remarkable.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > We don't know what the circumstances were around the actions this individual did or did not do. The crimes in question were rape and murder. Are you saying you doubt he actually did those things, or that you think there are some circumstances under which they'd be justified? If the latter, can you elaborate?
    - imiric 4y ago
      I'm not defending the crimes this person may have committed. I think my points were clear, but to summarize: - Wrongful verdicts and convictions do happen. - Is a life sentence the appropriate retribution to society? - The US prison system works on punishment and exploitation, rather than rehabilitation. - This person's writing shows remarkable thinking, despite of their environment.
- res0nat0r 4y ago
  Since the USA has more prisoners per capita than anywhere else in the world, I think we’ve pretty much failed as using jail as a deterrent. It really is all about punishment and removing those from society we don’t think deserve to live a free life (see the failed drug war).
- insane_dreamer 4y ago
  The U.S. incarceration and recidivism stats show this clearly does not work as a deterrent (in general, not talking specifically about murder; only ~14% of prisoners are in for murder: https://felonvoting.procon.org/incarcerated-felon-population-by-type-of-crime-committed/ https://felonvoting.procon.org/incarcerated-felon-population...
- 93po 4y ago
  How about "don't be accused of a crime if you want to live a good life". There are countless innocent people in prison and even a single innocent person enduring this is one too many.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    I agree that wrongful convictions are bad and we should try to reduce and even eliminate them. I don't agree that we should have milder punishments for crimes like murder and rape just because the wrongful conviction rate isn't zero.
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
Now imagine you were an American soldier captured during the Vietnam War and lived like this (but in filth) for 10 years. And survived.
- xeromal 4y ago
  That's what happened to John McCain (a 2008 US presidential candidate)
- jessaustin 4y ago
  Every Vietnam vet I've spoken with has been mostly seething with righteous anger that our evil politicians lied us into that stupid evil war. It was supposedly to stop Vietnam from allying with "communist China", but the moment they beat us Vietnam went to war against China. Our war actually delayed that war! Also it is pretty disgusting that CIA (or, as the latest agency-approved "conspiracy theory" has it, "rogue elements" of CIA) killed Kennedy to make sure we fought that stupid war. Then later they killed his brother because as president he could have done a real investigation. Why is Biden still breaking the law by not releasing all documents publicly? Why did Trump break the law and his own promises in the same way?
  - runlaszlorun 4y ago
    > Also it is pretty disgusting that CIA (or, as the latest agency-approved "conspiracy theory" has it, "rogue elements" of CIA) killed Kennedy to make sure we fought that stupid war. You got any good sources on this? I say this as someone who’s not a skeptic but curious on good JFK sources as many are not. My mom actually knew David Lifton at UCLA and his book presents an interesting case. If my memory’s right, he was a Cornell Engineering Physics graduate who was doing an advanced degree at UCLA. Which doesn’t make him right of course but does at least lead you to think that he knows a thing or two about objective data and what not.
    - jessaustin 4y ago
      I haven't read Lifton's book, and I don't want to imply agreement with any particular claim, but he is certainly correct that there were lots of implausible details about the autopsy, and especially with the official summary of the autopsy. It wasn't a physician who came up with the "magic bullet" theory, it was Arlen Specter, a cipher whose later continuing political success is inexplicable except in reference to his role on the Warren Commission. The best book to read now is JFK and the Unspeakable, by James Douglass. If a book like that doesn't fit into your life right now, either of the recent Oliver Stone documentaries are great. I believe that "JFK: Destiny Betrayed", which I watched through tears, is a longer version of "JFK Revisited: Through the Looking Glass".
deltasevennine 4y ago
The Scandinavians got it right in terms of how to create prisons.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Can we pay the Scandinavians and send them prisoners? If not, why not?
  - deltasevennine 4y ago
    We can. It just depends on how much money. Everything has a price.
t-3 4y ago
I don't think he even got close to adequately expressing what a horror it is. I've never been sent to the hole, but I've been to jail, and I know a lot of people who have been to prison. When they spend all day in a dark room with no outside contact, eat your "foodball" with no implements like an animal, and get beaten by guards without reason or recourse, people really do go insane. It's not legal, but very common to even deny prisoners in the hole their one hour per day outside. That's who-knows-how-long where the only light you see comes through the crack in the door and the only thing you hear is the demented howling of some crazy guy down the hall.

by simias 4y ago

jjcon 4y ago

I know what to say… how about… “don’t murder people if you want to live a good life”

deltasevennine 4y ago
You gotta take a higher perspective. Sure maybe those murderers deserve it. But what is the net benefit to society while those murderers are in prison and after those murderers are released? Ironically, research and actual events show that treating criminals with humanity actually yields a net benefit.
- xeromal 4y ago
  I think excluding a murderer from participating in society is a solid choice for the safety of others. Not saying it's the most perfect solution to a problem, but it is a decent solution.
  - lucb1e 4y ago
    And keep them in cages indefinitely just in case the wrong person was convicted after all, or are you also for 'eye for an eye' at that point?
  - deltasevennine 4y ago
    Oh I'm not saying that they should be released. I'm asking about what's happening inside those prisons. And what happens to the prisoner after he's released from said environment. Is there a net benefit to society with the current status quo? I guess in short a better way to put it is this: Is the prisoner reformed and able to reintegrate with society?
acjohnson55 4y ago
And how's that working as a deterrent?
imiric 4y ago
We don't know what the circumstances were around the actions this individual did or did not do. The justice system can be as corrupt as any other government institution, where wrongful verdicts and convictions are made all the time. It takes years of costly uphill legal battles to dig yourself out of that hole, and many don't make it. That said, even if this person did commit the crime, I'm siding with GP here: what is the purpose of keeping a human being behind bars for life, if there's no chance they would eventually reintegrate into society? Solitary confinement in particular seems like a medieval torture device designed to drive people mad, rather than rehabilitate them. If the State wants to remove someone from society altogether, the death penalty is a more humane way of doing that. A life sentence makes no sense in this system, unless someone is benefiting from keeping prisoners alive. In many ways, this is just a modern form of slavery. Judging by this person's writing, they've somehow managed to rehabilitate themselves despite of their cruel living conditions, which is nothing short of remarkable.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > We don't know what the circumstances were around the actions this individual did or did not do. The crimes in question were rape and murder. Are you saying you doubt he actually did those things, or that you think there are some circumstances under which they'd be justified? If the latter, can you elaborate?
  - imiric 4y ago
    I'm not defending the crimes this person may have committed. I think my points were clear, but to summarize: - Wrongful verdicts and convictions do happen. - Is a life sentence the appropriate retribution to society? - The US prison system works on punishment and exploitation, rather than rehabilitation. - This person's writing shows remarkable thinking, despite of their environment.
res0nat0r 4y ago
Since the USA has more prisoners per capita than anywhere else in the world, I think we’ve pretty much failed as using jail as a deterrent. It really is all about punishment and removing those from society we don’t think deserve to live a free life (see the failed drug war).
insane_dreamer 4y ago
The U.S. incarceration and recidivism stats show this clearly does not work as a deterrent (in general, not talking specifically about murder; only ~14% of prisoners are in for murder: https://felonvoting.procon.org/incarcerated-felon-population-by-type-of-crime-committed/ https://felonvoting.procon.org/incarcerated-felon-population...
93po 4y ago
How about "don't be accused of a crime if you want to live a good life". There are countless innocent people in prison and even a single innocent person enduring this is one too many.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  I agree that wrongful convictions are bad and we should try to reduce and even eliminate them. I don't agree that we should have milder punishments for crimes like murder and rape just because the wrongful conviction rate isn't zero.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago

Now imagine you were an American soldier captured during the Vietnam War and lived like this (but in filth) for 10 years. And survived.

xeromal 4y ago
That's what happened to John McCain (a 2008 US presidential candidate)
jessaustin 4y ago
Every Vietnam vet I've spoken with has been mostly seething with righteous anger that our evil politicians lied us into that stupid evil war. It was supposedly to stop Vietnam from allying with "communist China", but the moment they beat us Vietnam went to war against China. Our war actually delayed that war! Also it is pretty disgusting that CIA (or, as the latest agency-approved "conspiracy theory" has it, "rogue elements" of CIA) killed Kennedy to make sure we fought that stupid war. Then later they killed his brother because as president he could have done a real investigation. Why is Biden still breaking the law by not releasing all documents publicly? Why did Trump break the law and his own promises in the same way?
- runlaszlorun 4y ago
  > Also it is pretty disgusting that CIA (or, as the latest agency-approved "conspiracy theory" has it, "rogue elements" of CIA) killed Kennedy to make sure we fought that stupid war. You got any good sources on this? I say this as someone who’s not a skeptic but curious on good JFK sources as many are not. My mom actually knew David Lifton at UCLA and his book presents an interesting case. If my memory’s right, he was a Cornell Engineering Physics graduate who was doing an advanced degree at UCLA. Which doesn’t make him right of course but does at least lead you to think that he knows a thing or two about objective data and what not.
  - jessaustin 4y ago
    I haven't read Lifton's book, and I don't want to imply agreement with any particular claim, but he is certainly correct that there were lots of implausible details about the autopsy, and especially with the official summary of the autopsy. It wasn't a physician who came up with the "magic bullet" theory, it was Arlen Specter, a cipher whose later continuing political success is inexplicable except in reference to his role on the Warren Commission. The best book to read now is JFK and the Unspeakable, by James Douglass. If a book like that doesn't fit into your life right now, either of the recent Oliver Stone documentaries are great. I believe that "JFK: Destiny Betrayed", which I watched through tears, is a longer version of "JFK Revisited: Through the Looking Glass".

deltasevennine 4y ago

The Scandinavians got it right in terms of how to create prisons.

bombcar 4y ago
Can we pay the Scandinavians and send them prisoners? If not, why not?
- deltasevennine 4y ago
  We can. It just depends on how much money. Everything has a price.

t-3 4y ago

I don't think he even got close to adequately expressing what a horror it is. I've never been sent to the hole, but I've been to jail, and I know a lot of people who have been to prison. When they spend all day in a dark room with no outside contact, eat your "foodball" with no implements like an animal, and get beaten by guards without reason or recourse, people really do go insane. It's not legal, but very common to even deny prisoners in the hole their one hour per day outside. That's who-knows-how-long where the only light you see comes through the crack in the door and the only thing you hear is the demented howling of some crazy guy down the hall.