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Well at least you accept that mask mandates were wrong, even though you also attack people "operating at the level of masks don't work". Seems like a contradict

Well at least you accept that mask mandates were wrong, even though you also attack people "operating at the level of masks don't work". Seems like a contradiction. Germany mandated FFP2 masks quite a while ago. They didn't have any effect there either, and that is exactly as expected. To repeat: these viruses can spread through drainpipes connecting apartments. They can drift on the air between buildings. They can be suspended for hours in rooms and hallways. They can spread through air ducts in living quarters whilst people sleep. It's obvious why masks of any kind had no effect given this fact, nor could they have done. You seem to be believing that if only everyone had worn a slightly tighter fit of higher grade mask, things would have been different. But, people aren't ever going to wear gas masks 24/7 including in bed and in the shower. That's the whole reason that even biolabs use filters integrated into the building, not strapped to people's faces. That's why the idea you can fight respiratory virus epidemics with masks is just directionally wrong. You keep acting like this is the fault of the public, but it's just straightforward common sense given what the data says.

mindslight 4y ago
If viruses are spreading through the drainpipes into your apartment, you really need to call a plumber to make sure that all your drains have traps, and that they're full of water. I guess this would explain your over familiarity with "gas masks" too. Seriously, sewer gas is no joke, regardless of Covid.
- origin_path 4y ago
  Spread through drainpipes isn't some theory I made up, it's the conclusion of investigations into how SARS-1 spread in Hong Kong. The drains in questions were floor drains, so presumably had didn't have per-apartment traps in that case. At any rate, if you think it's obviously wrong then take it up with the people who wrote the paper I cited. The bigger problem is probably not floor drains of course but air ducts, hallways and other building areas that expose the uninfected to aerosols hanging in the air in ways that masks won't affect because people don't wear them at home. I get the impression from your other post you may have been making your family wear respirators, perhaps even at home. If so then yes, this message will be hard to hear, but it's not generalized stupidity amongst the population that we didn't all follow you in that. It's that the droplet model of spread was invalidated very early on and the immediate failure of mask mandates confirmed what was happening. Respirators with valves are especially incompatible with either model, and in fact got banned pretty early on where I live. You had to use masks without valves.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    I wasn't disputing the validity of that study [0]. I was pointing out that it's exceptional to have air flowing through your drains, and knocking down your ridiculous hyperbole of "gas masks". As I said, air filtration and biological isolation in general are engineering problems. The modern world is built on dragging problems into boring terms we can coldly analyze. What you're doing is jumping between red herrings and then coming to the conclusion that the problem is intractable. The nonsense train continues with the strawman "you may have been making your family wear respirators, perhaps even at home". Obviously, at least if you're thinking prudently, you define your groups of people you have regular close contact with where transmission is likely a foregone conclusion. You don't take a public health recommendation to wear a mask, extrapolate that as if it's a suggestion to wear them at home in bed etc, figure that's ridiculous, throw your hands up, and then turn to Facebook for validation. Your quick jump to this apparent meme really just demonstrates how far from rationality you are. [0] I also wasn't agreeing with it - I just don't see a reason to read it. Sure, I'll believe that can happen.
    - origin_path 4y ago
      your ridiculous hyperbole of "gas masks". It's not hyperbole. Aerosols are very hard to filter and can even enter via the eyeballs. Maybe proper military grade gas masks can keep them out, I don't know, I don't think there's been much study of that. On the other hand good airflow seems more important. Very few cases were traced to planes and outdoor events. "What you're doing is jumping between red herrings and then coming to the conclusion that the problem is intractable." No, we never talked about whether the problem is tractable in theory. I started by pointing out that mask mandates didn't work. You then took the position that they would have worked if only everyone had worn respirators instead, which I pointed out is also wrong. Now you've moved the goalposts to some sort of theoretical exercise in which a solution might exist, one day. Could we reduce flu and COVID levels by re-engineering existing buildings to have biolab-like air handling equipment? Probably! Was it possible to have done that during COVID itself? No. Is it reasonable to do that going forward? Very unlikely to have a good cost/benefit ratio, no. "You don't take a public health recommendation to wear a mask, extrapolate that as if it's a suggestion to wear them at home in bed etc, figure that's ridiculous, throw your hands up, and then turn to Facebook for validation" I never mentioned Facebook. I've been citing data from real world outbreaks and scientific journals, not memes from Facebook. The public health recommendation to wear masks was in fact ridiculous given what was known at that point (and still is), because it could not have worked. In 2020/2021/2022 we do not have any way to stop a pandemic caused by an aerosolized respiratory virus. Maybe one day we will, sure. If you want to try and research ways to do that, go right ahead, but masks or respirators of any kind aren't going to play a part in a solution.

mindslight 4y ago

If viruses are spreading through the drainpipes into your apartment, you really need to call a plumber to make sure that all your drains have traps, and that they're full of water. I guess this would explain your over familiarity with "gas masks" too. Seriously, sewer gas is no joke, regardless of Covid.

origin_path 4y ago
Spread through drainpipes isn't some theory I made up, it's the conclusion of investigations into how SARS-1 spread in Hong Kong. The drains in questions were floor drains, so presumably had didn't have per-apartment traps in that case. At any rate, if you think it's obviously wrong then take it up with the people who wrote the paper I cited. The bigger problem is probably not floor drains of course but air ducts, hallways and other building areas that expose the uninfected to aerosols hanging in the air in ways that masks won't affect because people don't wear them at home. I get the impression from your other post you may have been making your family wear respirators, perhaps even at home. If so then yes, this message will be hard to hear, but it's not generalized stupidity amongst the population that we didn't all follow you in that. It's that the droplet model of spread was invalidated very early on and the immediate failure of mask mandates confirmed what was happening. Respirators with valves are especially incompatible with either model, and in fact got banned pretty early on where I live. You had to use masks without valves.
- mindslight 4y ago
  I wasn't disputing the validity of that study [0]. I was pointing out that it's exceptional to have air flowing through your drains, and knocking down your ridiculous hyperbole of "gas masks". As I said, air filtration and biological isolation in general are engineering problems. The modern world is built on dragging problems into boring terms we can coldly analyze. What you're doing is jumping between red herrings and then coming to the conclusion that the problem is intractable. The nonsense train continues with the strawman "you may have been making your family wear respirators, perhaps even at home". Obviously, at least if you're thinking prudently, you define your groups of people you have regular close contact with where transmission is likely a foregone conclusion. You don't take a public health recommendation to wear a mask, extrapolate that as if it's a suggestion to wear them at home in bed etc, figure that's ridiculous, throw your hands up, and then turn to Facebook for validation. Your quick jump to this apparent meme really just demonstrates how far from rationality you are. [0] I also wasn't agreeing with it - I just don't see a reason to read it. Sure, I'll believe that can happen.
  - origin_path 4y ago
    your ridiculous hyperbole of "gas masks". It's not hyperbole. Aerosols are very hard to filter and can even enter via the eyeballs. Maybe proper military grade gas masks can keep them out, I don't know, I don't think there's been much study of that. On the other hand good airflow seems more important. Very few cases were traced to planes and outdoor events. "What you're doing is jumping between red herrings and then coming to the conclusion that the problem is intractable." No, we never talked about whether the problem is tractable in theory. I started by pointing out that mask mandates didn't work. You then took the position that they would have worked if only everyone had worn respirators instead, which I pointed out is also wrong. Now you've moved the goalposts to some sort of theoretical exercise in which a solution might exist, one day. Could we reduce flu and COVID levels by re-engineering existing buildings to have biolab-like air handling equipment? Probably! Was it possible to have done that during COVID itself? No. Is it reasonable to do that going forward? Very unlikely to have a good cost/benefit ratio, no. "You don't take a public health recommendation to wear a mask, extrapolate that as if it's a suggestion to wear them at home in bed etc, figure that's ridiculous, throw your hands up, and then turn to Facebook for validation" I never mentioned Facebook. I've been citing data from real world outbreaks and scientific journals, not memes from Facebook. The public health recommendation to wear masks was in fact ridiculous given what was known at that point (and still is), because it could not have worked. In 2020/2021/2022 we do not have any way to stop a pandemic caused by an aerosolized respiratory virus. Maybe one day we will, sure. If you want to try and research ways to do that, go right ahead, but masks or respirators of any kind aren't going to play a part in a solution.