5 ms·

What luxury do men have in 2022? The luxury of not being able to express feelings? The luxury of having a smaller chance of getting hired? The luxury of havi

What luxury do men have in 2022? The luxury of not being able to express feelings? The luxury of having a smaller chance of getting hired? The luxury of having a higher suicide rate? The luxury of getting constantly called out on social media? The luxury of being told to stop whining when we point these things out?

AlecSchueler 4y ago
The daily luxury of speaking with strangers shit fear of sexual assault. I thought that was clear from the context Many of your other points are valid issues which are good points for discussion in other threads. Being called out for reinforcing patriarchal social norms, however, is fair enough. Don't take it as a personal attack but rather a little reminder to consider the effect your speech can have on others. If you are being told to "stop whining" for discussing the other issues that do effect men's mental health then that's a pity, but do please be aware if you're bringing them up in order to minimise or divert from the issues faced by other groups as you seem to be doing in this case.
- brigandish 4y ago
  > The daily luxury of speaking with strangers shit fear of sexual assault. Assuming that is a typo where "without" is supposed to sit, which men have that luxury? I know a man who was raped by a group of strangers at knifepoint, so he doesn't have that luxury. Or does he? Do I, now that I know the reality beyond a mere statistic or a rumour? I just don't know what you're proposing so I'd like to hear about how it works.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    Are you honestly saying that the man you know is statistically typical of stranger rape? Because you can't be saying that the fact that it has ever happened means that it rational for men and women to have equal levels of fear about it. Because we all know that men rape men. Here's a question, though. Have you ever sat in a group of women fearing that you would be raped?
    - nmz 4y ago
      No, but I have sat and feared how easily they could destroy my life. A little scandal here, an accusation there and life is over.
      - AlecSchueler 4y ago
        Do you know how incredibly rare false accusations are in the things? Perpetuating the idea that it's a thing that women do does severe damage, it creates an atmosphere that is hostile to women speaking up about their assaults and it sews seeds of doubt.
        brigandish 4y ago
        You still seem to be labouring under the misconception that risk is about prevalence. If that were true then you wouldn't wear a seatbelt, as I'm willing to bet that you've never needed one. Risk is the chance of something occurring combined with the effect of that thing occurring. Hence, a one off but life threatening event may be considered high risk, so it doesn't really matter if false accusations are incredibly rare or not if the damage that flows from them is severe. For example[1], a trainee lawyer accused her boyfriend of repeatedly raping her, imprisoning her, and violently abusing her to the point of making her miscarry. The reality was that she needed an excuse for failing her legal exams. When he was put into prison on remand - he hadn't even gone to trial yet - an officer spread a rumour that he was a paedophile, to which the other prisoners reacted as you might expect, by attacking him. He was then moved onto a wing with rapists and murderers. He called it "your worst nightmare come true". Why is this a risk that anyone should ignore? The FBI has said[2]: > As with all other Crime Index offenses, complaints of forcible rape made to law enforcement agencies are sometimes found to be false or baseless. In such cases, law enforcement agencies “unfound” the offenses and exclude them from crime counts. The “unfounded” rate, or percentage of complaints determined through investigation to be false, is higher for forc-ible rape than for any other Index crime. Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,” while the average for all Index crimes was 2 percent. 8% seems a fair amount higher than what I'd call "incredibly rare", especially given it's 4 times higher than for other types of crime. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02qs6pw https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02qs6pw [2] https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdf https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdf
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Sexual assault by a true stranger is rare, for either men or women. Of course it happens, but it's much more likely to be someone you already know or see regularly than it is to be a random person you happened to talk to on the street or in a shop.
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    It's true that it's most likely to be someone you know. But sexual harassment from strangers is extremely common. Assault less so, yes, but you can be sure that every woman you've ever met has or will be harassed, that she's been cat called, flashed, groped, cornered in, been made to feel uncomfortable or objectified. This is enough to imbue random approaches with a sense of uncertainty and danger. She never knows if you'll be the one to add to the statistics. Keep in mind also that the statistic of most assault coming from close family/friends doesn't mean other forms are rare. Most women experience multiple assaults throughout their lives. Keep also in mind that most sexual crime goes unreported and that things like groping on public transport can be so common that most women wouldn't even think of reporting it. Keep in mind also that statistics aren't what we base our fear on. I know I'm statistically unlikely to have a bad car crash going to the shop but I'll still put my seatbelt on. Further to that, consider the pain that can be caused to victims when we essentially shut them down and say their fear is misplaced (read feelings are invalid) and that they should look more at the data than their own lived experiences. As a final note I highly encourage you to talk and listen to the women around you
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LightG 4y ago
Wow ... I think you've gone over to the other side with that list ... with the exception of the suicide rate. Honestly. I'm a bloke, by the way. Either you're in a bad place and I wish you well. Or you have a very skewed view of current reality, and ... I wish you self- and social- awareness.
- booleandilemma 4y ago
  This is exactly what I'm talking about. Just for listing a few simple, non-controversial points I'm told that I'm in a "bad place" and that I have a "skewed view of current reality". Ad-hominem garbage. Oh yes, I'm drowning in luxury right now.
  - LightG 4y ago
    Thanks for expressing your feelings on the matter. Have a great day.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  The suicide one is actually an interesting statistic when you break it up a little. Women actually make far more suicide attempts, but men use more violent means when they do do it and that leads to a higher success rate.
  - LightG 4y ago
    Thanks. That's an interesting (if tragic) clarification.

AlecSchueler 4y ago

The daily luxury of speaking with strangers shit fear of sexual assault. I thought that was clear from the context Many of your other points are valid issues which are good points for discussion in other threads. Being called out for reinforcing patriarchal social norms, however, is fair enough. Don't take it as a personal attack but rather a little reminder to consider the effect your speech can have on others. If you are being told to "stop whining" for discussing the other issues that do effect men's mental health then that's a pity, but do please be aware if you're bringing them up in order to minimise or divert from the issues faced by other groups as you seem to be doing in this case.

brigandish 4y ago
> The daily luxury of speaking with strangers shit fear of sexual assault. Assuming that is a typo where "without" is supposed to sit, which men have that luxury? I know a man who was raped by a group of strangers at knifepoint, so he doesn't have that luxury. Or does he? Do I, now that I know the reality beyond a mere statistic or a rumour? I just don't know what you're proposing so I'd like to hear about how it works.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Are you honestly saying that the man you know is statistically typical of stranger rape? Because you can't be saying that the fact that it has ever happened means that it rational for men and women to have equal levels of fear about it. Because we all know that men rape men. Here's a question, though. Have you ever sat in a group of women fearing that you would be raped?
  - nmz 4y ago
    No, but I have sat and feared how easily they could destroy my life. A little scandal here, an accusation there and life is over.
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      Do you know how incredibly rare false accusations are in the things? Perpetuating the idea that it's a thing that women do does severe damage, it creates an atmosphere that is hostile to women speaking up about their assaults and it sews seeds of doubt.
      - brigandish 4y ago
        You still seem to be labouring under the misconception that risk is about prevalence. If that were true then you wouldn't wear a seatbelt, as I'm willing to bet that you've never needed one. Risk is the chance of something occurring combined with the effect of that thing occurring. Hence, a one off but life threatening event may be considered high risk, so it doesn't really matter if false accusations are incredibly rare or not if the damage that flows from them is severe. For example[1], a trainee lawyer accused her boyfriend of repeatedly raping her, imprisoning her, and violently abusing her to the point of making her miscarry. The reality was that she needed an excuse for failing her legal exams. When he was put into prison on remand - he hadn't even gone to trial yet - an officer spread a rumour that he was a paedophile, to which the other prisoners reacted as you might expect, by attacking him. He was then moved onto a wing with rapists and murderers. He called it "your worst nightmare come true". Why is this a risk that anyone should ignore? The FBI has said[2]: > As with all other Crime Index offenses, complaints of forcible rape made to law enforcement agencies are sometimes found to be false or baseless. In such cases, law enforcement agencies “unfound” the offenses and exclude them from crime counts. The “unfounded” rate, or percentage of complaints determined through investigation to be false, is higher for forc-ible rape than for any other Index crime. Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,” while the average for all Index crimes was 2 percent. 8% seems a fair amount higher than what I'd call "incredibly rare", especially given it's 4 times higher than for other types of crime. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02qs6pw https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02qs6pw [2] https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdf https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdf
SoftTalker 4y ago
Sexual assault by a true stranger is rare, for either men or women. Of course it happens, but it's much more likely to be someone you already know or see regularly than it is to be a random person you happened to talk to on the street or in a shop.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  It's true that it's most likely to be someone you know. But sexual harassment from strangers is extremely common. Assault less so, yes, but you can be sure that every woman you've ever met has or will be harassed, that she's been cat called, flashed, groped, cornered in, been made to feel uncomfortable or objectified. This is enough to imbue random approaches with a sense of uncertainty and danger. She never knows if you'll be the one to add to the statistics. Keep in mind also that the statistic of most assault coming from close family/friends doesn't mean other forms are rare. Most women experience multiple assaults throughout their lives. Keep also in mind that most sexual crime goes unreported and that things like groping on public transport can be so common that most women wouldn't even think of reporting it. Keep in mind also that statistics aren't what we base our fear on. I know I'm statistically unlikely to have a bad car crash going to the shop but I'll still put my seatbelt on. Further to that, consider the pain that can be caused to victims when we essentially shut them down and say their fear is misplaced (read feelings are invalid) and that they should look more at the data than their own lived experiences. As a final note I highly encourage you to talk and listen to the women around you

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LightG 4y ago

Wow ... I think you've gone over to the other side with that list ... with the exception of the suicide rate. Honestly. I'm a bloke, by the way. Either you're in a bad place and I wish you well. Or you have a very skewed view of current reality, and ... I wish you self- and social- awareness.

booleandilemma 4y ago
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Just for listing a few simple, non-controversial points I'm told that I'm in a "bad place" and that I have a "skewed view of current reality". Ad-hominem garbage. Oh yes, I'm drowning in luxury right now.
- LightG 4y ago
  Thanks for expressing your feelings on the matter. Have a great day.
AlecSchueler 4y ago
The suicide one is actually an interesting statistic when you break it up a little. Women actually make far more suicide attempts, but men use more violent means when they do do it and that leads to a higher success rate.
- LightG 4y ago
  Thanks. That's an interesting (if tragic) clarification.