4 ms·

How about we look at the stats on "total body count" (maybe broken down by military and civilian) for the US and Russian militaries over the last, say, 30 years

How about we look at the stats on "total body count" (maybe broken down by military and civilian) for the US and Russian militaries over the last, say, 30 years? I like to start with just the raw numbers, and then the narratives used to justify the actions can be layered on top afterwards... I think this can be helpful to better see how the process works.

mft_ 4y ago
…because that’s a major tangent (or straw man; presumably intentional) away from the topic being discussed?
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
How about don't play stupid whataboutist games in which somehow US crimes justify Russian ones? FWIW I'm not a citizen of either country, and my country didn't kill Iraqis because our citizens forced our government to not get involved. In my ideal world Lavrov would be held in the same prison cell as Kissinger.
- hackinthebochs 4y ago
  >How about don't play stupid whataboutist games in which somehow US crimes justify Russian ones? It's not whataboutism, its pointing out the absurdity that we're heading towards a nuclear showdown over the very same acts the U.S. regularly engages in, even within recent memory. It's pointing out that the moral arguments only apply when the aggressors are not the U.S. This is not whataboutism, this is pointing out hypocrisy and naked manipulation.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    > "It's pointing out that the moral arguments only apply when the aggressors are not the U.S. " I don't know where you were the night & weekend that the US started bombing in Iraq, but I was in the streets marching. I spent most of my teens 20s and 30s being active against US imperialism. So, yes, it's infantile whataboutism and strawman making. I and many others who take a stand against Russia's actions in Ukraine and elsewhere don't conform to this strawman image you and others have made. The crimes of the US do not justify the crimes of Russia, and I for one am glad to see consequences enforced against Putin's regime. Similar limits should also exist for US actions.
    - hackinthebochs 4y ago
      >I spent most of my teens 20s and 30s being active against US imperialism. This isn't an issue of your personal credence, it's an issue of the arguments used to justify our current course of action by the decision-makers and their enablers. >and I for one am glad to see consequences enforced against Putin's regime. Similar limits should also exist for US actions. The problem is that no one defines exactly what "consequences" are and where the lines are. These discussions never go well so let's just skip to the end: is it your opinion that the U.S. should ensure Russia fully retreats from Ukraine, up to and including a nuclear exchange? (when the reply button isn't active you can click on the comment's timestamp and reply there)
      - mistermann 4y ago
        > The problem is... My thinking is a bit different: I would say an even more substantial problem is the near ubiquitous phenomenon whereby people believe that what they "see" to be "the" problem is necessarily the actual problem. Or in other words: a dangerous percentage of the population no longer has the ability to wonder about or desire to know what is true. Do you think there might be any validity to this theory?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mistermann 4y ago
  > How about don't play stupid whataboutist games in which somehow US crimes justify Russian ones? I will go even further: how about we don't live in Fantasyland?
prvit 4y ago
The total body count for US military in the past 30 years is almost certainly less than the total body count for Russian military in the past 9 months. The vast majority of the deaths in middle eastern conflicts were caused by locals, not US troops. Not to even mention that hardly any US troops died, but Russian troops are dying by the tens of thousands.
- hackinthebochs 4y ago
  Only if you don't count the knock-on effects of US policy, which is absurd.
  - prvit 4y ago
    No, not really. It’s silly to blame the US for actions of other groups working to pursue their own goals.
    - hackinthebochs 4y ago
      The predictable result of groups that the US unleashed by bad decisions and creating a power vacuum? Yes, they own it.
      - prvit 4y ago
        Why do you think it’s ok to strip those people of their agency like that? Is it because they’re brown and you consider them to be primitive people?
        hackinthebochs 4y ago
        Arguments like this are so transparent. Do better.
        prvit 4y ago
        Your argument is akin to blaming NATO for the war in Ukraine.

mft_ 4y ago

…because that’s a major tangent (or straw man; presumably intentional) away from the topic being discussed?

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

How about don't play stupid whataboutist games in which somehow US crimes justify Russian ones? FWIW I'm not a citizen of either country, and my country didn't kill Iraqis because our citizens forced our government to not get involved. In my ideal world Lavrov would be held in the same prison cell as Kissinger.

hackinthebochs 4y ago
>How about don't play stupid whataboutist games in which somehow US crimes justify Russian ones? It's not whataboutism, its pointing out the absurdity that we're heading towards a nuclear showdown over the very same acts the U.S. regularly engages in, even within recent memory. It's pointing out that the moral arguments only apply when the aggressors are not the U.S. This is not whataboutism, this is pointing out hypocrisy and naked manipulation.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  > "It's pointing out that the moral arguments only apply when the aggressors are not the U.S. " I don't know where you were the night & weekend that the US started bombing in Iraq, but I was in the streets marching. I spent most of my teens 20s and 30s being active against US imperialism. So, yes, it's infantile whataboutism and strawman making. I and many others who take a stand against Russia's actions in Ukraine and elsewhere don't conform to this strawman image you and others have made. The crimes of the US do not justify the crimes of Russia, and I for one am glad to see consequences enforced against Putin's regime. Similar limits should also exist for US actions.
  - hackinthebochs 4y ago
    >I spent most of my teens 20s and 30s being active against US imperialism. This isn't an issue of your personal credence, it's an issue of the arguments used to justify our current course of action by the decision-makers and their enablers. >and I for one am glad to see consequences enforced against Putin's regime. Similar limits should also exist for US actions. The problem is that no one defines exactly what "consequences" are and where the lines are. These discussions never go well so let's just skip to the end: is it your opinion that the U.S. should ensure Russia fully retreats from Ukraine, up to and including a nuclear exchange? (when the reply button isn't active you can click on the comment's timestamp and reply there)
    - mistermann 4y ago
      > The problem is... My thinking is a bit different: I would say an even more substantial problem is the near ubiquitous phenomenon whereby people believe that what they "see" to be "the" problem is necessarily the actual problem. Or in other words: a dangerous percentage of the population no longer has the ability to wonder about or desire to know what is true. Do you think there might be any validity to this theory?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mistermann 4y ago
> How about don't play stupid whataboutist games in which somehow US crimes justify Russian ones? I will go even further: how about we don't live in Fantasyland?

prvit 4y ago

The total body count for US military in the past 30 years is almost certainly less than the total body count for Russian military in the past 9 months. The vast majority of the deaths in middle eastern conflicts were caused by locals, not US troops. Not to even mention that hardly any US troops died, but Russian troops are dying by the tens of thousands.

hackinthebochs 4y ago
Only if you don't count the knock-on effects of US policy, which is absurd.
- prvit 4y ago
  No, not really. It’s silly to blame the US for actions of other groups working to pursue their own goals.
  - hackinthebochs 4y ago
    The predictable result of groups that the US unleashed by bad decisions and creating a power vacuum? Yes, they own it.
    - prvit 4y ago
      Why do you think it’s ok to strip those people of their agency like that? Is it because they’re brown and you consider them to be primitive people?
      - hackinthebochs 4y ago
        Arguments like this are so transparent. Do better.
        prvit 4y ago
        Your argument is akin to blaming NATO for the war in Ukraine.