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The article describes a team helping a country defend itself against cyberattacks. How is that "pressing the button on a war"?

zmgsabst 4y ago
Assisting the defense of a nation at war with your own military assets is traditionally considered “joining a war”.
- BobbyJo 4y ago
  If that were the definition, then Russia is at war with nearly the entire developed world. Doesn't seem like they're doing a very good job of things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20has%20provided,in%20order%20to%20support%20Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine....
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- halJordan 4y ago
  That's probably a necessary, but not sufficient response. Russia wasn't at war in 2014. The Soviets weren't at war in Korea or Vietnam. These are distinctions the West made.
- ajuc 4y ago
  Good thing there's no war in Ukraine then, just "special military operation". Joking aside - it's not as simple. For one thing in modern times nobody actually declares wars, and Russia isn't abiding to all the conventions anyway. So the rules are very fuzzy. For another - selling weapons or providing volunteers was never considered "joining a war", even according to the strictest reading of the conventions assuming they applied.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    This doesn’t sound like either of those things. Per article: > Gen Paul Nakasone, who leads both the military's Cyber Command and the National Security Agency confirmed offensive missions have also been undertaken against Russia in the wake of the invasion of Ukraine.
- mint2 4y ago
  Good thing then Russia’s official stance is that there is no war. In fact, that’s such a noxious lie in Russia view that they jail people for repeating it. Shouldn’t we trust Russia judgement on this if we’re trusting their claimed objections of NATO?
BobbyJo 4y ago
The line the Russian trolls tend to expose is "Taunting Russia risks all of our lives", then they proceed to explain how not giving Russia everything it wants is taunting. This person has likely fallen for the propaganda they push.
- imwillofficial 4y ago
  I don’t think it’s helpful to categorize every opposing viewpoint as having fallen for propaganda. There are valid, reasonable concerns on both sides. Such as the US backed coup in 2012, the shelling on the Donbas for almost a decade, corruption in high levels of the Ukraine government, questions over Russia’s democratic integrity, etc… None of those are propaganda, they were in the New York Times. Which is a fairly respected news source in the west. Discounting everyone who disagrees with you as propagandists is intellectually lazy and keeps people from understanding the nuance of a very complex situation. Nobody’s hands are pure here, now we are discussing whose hands are dirtiest.
  - kramerger 4y ago
    > Such as the US backed coup in 2012, the shelling on the Donbas for almost a decade, corruption in high levels of the Ukraine government, questions over Russia’s democratic integrity, etc… What?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - thefounder 4y ago
    >> Such as the US backed coup in 2012, the shelling on the Donbas for almost a decade, corruption in high levels of the Ukraine government, questions over Russia’s democratic integrity, etc… If you study big corruption in Europe this is pretty much the effect/leftovers of the Soviet Union/communist system. I really doubt the US increased corruption in Ukraine. There was not much room left for the corruption to increase anyway. As far as Donbas is concerned you have to ask yourself how did it come that Ukraine had to shell its own territory. It's not about whose hands are pure. For some reasons Russia does not understand that nobody in Europe wants Soviet Union back. The rejection of Russia is not due American interference. It's due Russia's broken backwards policies. Russia it's a beacon of corruption and waste and now it started a new war in Europe. Even Russia's closest neighbours and "allies" are starting to reject Russia(i.e Kyrgyzstan). It's clear that Putin/Russia not only failed become more attractive as an ally/example to follow but lost the plot entirely. Compare that with Germany and the EU.
imwillofficial 4y ago
I’d say having boots on the ground fighting as “contractors” and openly supplying weapons and money is pressing the button.
mint2 4y ago
To many, Ukraine defending itself against an invasion means it’s the aggressors because words have no meaning except what sounds good to the immediate argument. Tomorrow the words may mean the opposite. I say maybe we should listen to the official Russian description of events to see what’s happening. It’s impossible for nato to be in a proxy war because Russia is not at war. In fact one can go to jail for spreading the noxious lie that Russia is at war. Yes there is a minor special military operation, but no war. Per Russia, at most they are carrying out a special military operation that nato has interfered with. Absolute no war! Careful, don’t “lie” according to Russia and say it’s a war.

zmgsabst 4y ago

Assisting the defense of a nation at war with your own military assets is traditionally considered “joining a war”.

BobbyJo 4y ago
If that were the definition, then Russia is at war with nearly the entire developed world. Doesn't seem like they're doing a very good job of things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20has%20provided,in%20order%20to%20support%20Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine....
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
halJordan 4y ago
That's probably a necessary, but not sufficient response. Russia wasn't at war in 2014. The Soviets weren't at war in Korea or Vietnam. These are distinctions the West made.
ajuc 4y ago
Good thing there's no war in Ukraine then, just "special military operation". Joking aside - it's not as simple. For one thing in modern times nobody actually declares wars, and Russia isn't abiding to all the conventions anyway. So the rules are very fuzzy. For another - selling weapons or providing volunteers was never considered "joining a war", even according to the strictest reading of the conventions assuming they applied.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  This doesn’t sound like either of those things. Per article: > Gen Paul Nakasone, who leads both the military's Cyber Command and the National Security Agency confirmed offensive missions have also been undertaken against Russia in the wake of the invasion of Ukraine.
mint2 4y ago
Good thing then Russia’s official stance is that there is no war. In fact, that’s such a noxious lie in Russia view that they jail people for repeating it. Shouldn’t we trust Russia judgement on this if we’re trusting their claimed objections of NATO?

BobbyJo 4y ago

The line the Russian trolls tend to expose is "Taunting Russia risks all of our lives", then they proceed to explain how not giving Russia everything it wants is taunting. This person has likely fallen for the propaganda they push.

imwillofficial 4y ago
I don’t think it’s helpful to categorize every opposing viewpoint as having fallen for propaganda. There are valid, reasonable concerns on both sides. Such as the US backed coup in 2012, the shelling on the Donbas for almost a decade, corruption in high levels of the Ukraine government, questions over Russia’s democratic integrity, etc… None of those are propaganda, they were in the New York Times. Which is a fairly respected news source in the west. Discounting everyone who disagrees with you as propagandists is intellectually lazy and keeps people from understanding the nuance of a very complex situation. Nobody’s hands are pure here, now we are discussing whose hands are dirtiest.
- kramerger 4y ago
  > Such as the US backed coup in 2012, the shelling on the Donbas for almost a decade, corruption in high levels of the Ukraine government, questions over Russia’s democratic integrity, etc… What?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- thefounder 4y ago
  >> Such as the US backed coup in 2012, the shelling on the Donbas for almost a decade, corruption in high levels of the Ukraine government, questions over Russia’s democratic integrity, etc… If you study big corruption in Europe this is pretty much the effect/leftovers of the Soviet Union/communist system. I really doubt the US increased corruption in Ukraine. There was not much room left for the corruption to increase anyway. As far as Donbas is concerned you have to ask yourself how did it come that Ukraine had to shell its own territory. It's not about whose hands are pure. For some reasons Russia does not understand that nobody in Europe wants Soviet Union back. The rejection of Russia is not due American interference. It's due Russia's broken backwards policies. Russia it's a beacon of corruption and waste and now it started a new war in Europe. Even Russia's closest neighbours and "allies" are starting to reject Russia(i.e Kyrgyzstan). It's clear that Putin/Russia not only failed become more attractive as an ally/example to follow but lost the plot entirely. Compare that with Germany and the EU.

imwillofficial 4y ago

I’d say having boots on the ground fighting as “contractors” and openly supplying weapons and money is pressing the button.

mint2 4y ago

To many, Ukraine defending itself against an invasion means it’s the aggressors because words have no meaning except what sounds good to the immediate argument. Tomorrow the words may mean the opposite. I say maybe we should listen to the official Russian description of events to see what’s happening. It’s impossible for nato to be in a proxy war because Russia is not at war. In fact one can go to jail for spreading the noxious lie that Russia is at war. Yes there is a minor special military operation, but no war. Per Russia, at most they are carrying out a special military operation that nato has interfered with. Absolute no war! Careful, don’t “lie” according to Russia and say it’s a war.