4 ms·

Care to elaborate? I don't understand what you mean, nor can I even guess.

by ssl232 4y ago

downvotetruth 4y ago
A, B, C, F, H, I, K, & L short with a straight conductor as shown on top (dropped). A, C, D, E, F, G, J, L, M, N & O from below. A relative larger ground prong in the middle in a linear config would be a minor fix keeping the bare terminals, but still leaves open the issue of the terminals getting wrapped in a conductor (i.e. wet hair).
- basicoperation 4y ago
  G prevents this. From its page here: https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/g/ https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/... “The 9-mm long insulated sleeves prevent accidental contact with a bare connector while the plug is partially inserted.”
- alexvoda 4y ago
  I do not get how you claim a type F or G or L can be shorted. The CEE 7/7 (E & F hybrid) can not be shorted due to socket design. The Europlug, the British plug, the Italian plug and a few others can not be shorted because the prongs are covered in plastic.
  - downvotetruth 4y ago
    Thin Plastic/insulator may wear faster than metal - not that it should not also be used. Again socket design is a no true scotsman - recessing the socket (https://www.legrand.com/ecatalogue/media/catalog/product/cache/4/image/650x650/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/l/g/LG-004285-WEB-R.jpg https://www.legrand.com/ecatalogue/media/catalog/product/cac...) could be claimed to fix the issue for all of them, but that does not disallow flat sockets or male to male. An alternative is to have the ground shaped as the circular conductor acting as the (plastic) insulator surrounding one or both terminals.
    - throwaway294566 4y ago
      The socket in your example is Type F, Schuko. Those are only available in recessed form, any flat variants are strictly verboten, nonconforming, etc. It is actually another problem of the original article: It doesn't show and distinguish between recessed sockets and sockets that are available/allowed to be used in a flat form. The recess also makes the mechanical mating far more robust and takes away mechanical wear from the prongs. So in contrast to flat designs like the British, where all the force rests on the (admittedly thicker) prongs, Type F avoids that problem by distributing most of the forces into the socket housing. Of course you need to replace that if cracked, but you avoid the danger of cracks in the prongs. Cracked or bent prongs are really a fire danger because if they don't immediately fall of (which is the good case), they might continue to be used, albeit with increased electrical resistance due to the crack. Resistance leads to overheating, overheating leads to fires. And no RCCB/SRCD or OCB will help you there. An AFDD might (if there is an arc, which might be 50% of cases), but nobody has those because they are fairly new, very expensive and only code-required in some special types of buildings (care facilities, hospitals and such).
      - alexvoda 4y ago
        And for any of the socket types that have the same distance between prongs, Shuko plugs do not fit because the prongs are thicker. That is why the Europlug has insulated prongs. It fits where Shuko doesn't. You actually can not even build a non-recesed Shuko (grounded) socket, because the earth contacts are part of the housing.
        throwaway294566 4y ago
        Right, exactly. And non-grounded Schuko Sockets are forbidden, at least in Germany (Europlug sockets are allowed if they only accept Europlugs, see the ones on the left side here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Euro-socket.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Euro-socket.jpg . No idea what the standard might be for those.)
    - alexvoda 4y ago
      Also, do not build male to male suicide cables. If you have a generator, install a proper input for the generator that disconnects the house from the grid when in use. These have a different connector. Besides, none of what you propose will save someone who builds a male to male cable. Darwin awards have to be awarded.
- ssl232 4y ago
  Do you mean that these plugs can be dropped onto some conducting material and cause a short? That's technically true but no sane electrical safety standard allows prongs on a plug to carry lethal current when exposed. It's required by European norms and doublessly most or all others around the world for devices, including plugs, for there to be no way barring multiple failures to the device for the user to receive a lethal shock from exposed terminals.

Care to elaborate? I don't understand what you mean, nor can I even guess.

by ssl232 4y ago

Care to elaborate? I don't understand what you mean, nor can I even guess.

A, B, C, F, H, I, K, & L short with a straight conductor as shown on top (dropped). A, C, D, E, F, G, J, L, M, N & O from below. A relative larger ground prong in the middle in a linear config would be a minor fix keeping the bare terminals, but still leaves open the issue of the terminals getting wrapped in a conductor (i.e. wet hair).

basicoperation 4y ago
G prevents this. From its page here: https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/g/ https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/... “The 9-mm long insulated sleeves prevent accidental contact with a bare connector while the plug is partially inserted.”
alexvoda 4y ago
I do not get how you claim a type F or G or L can be shorted. The CEE 7/7 (E & F hybrid) can not be shorted due to socket design. The Europlug, the British plug, the Italian plug and a few others can not be shorted because the prongs are covered in plastic.
- downvotetruth 4y ago
  Thin Plastic/insulator may wear faster than metal - not that it should not also be used. Again socket design is a no true scotsman - recessing the socket (https://www.legrand.com/ecatalogue/media/catalog/product/cache/4/image/650x650/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/l/g/LG-004285-WEB-R.jpg https://www.legrand.com/ecatalogue/media/catalog/product/cac...) could be claimed to fix the issue for all of them, but that does not disallow flat sockets or male to male. An alternative is to have the ground shaped as the circular conductor acting as the (plastic) insulator surrounding one or both terminals.
  - throwaway294566 4y ago
    The socket in your example is Type F, Schuko. Those are only available in recessed form, any flat variants are strictly verboten, nonconforming, etc. It is actually another problem of the original article: It doesn't show and distinguish between recessed sockets and sockets that are available/allowed to be used in a flat form. The recess also makes the mechanical mating far more robust and takes away mechanical wear from the prongs. So in contrast to flat designs like the British, where all the force rests on the (admittedly thicker) prongs, Type F avoids that problem by distributing most of the forces into the socket housing. Of course you need to replace that if cracked, but you avoid the danger of cracks in the prongs. Cracked or bent prongs are really a fire danger because if they don't immediately fall of (which is the good case), they might continue to be used, albeit with increased electrical resistance due to the crack. Resistance leads to overheating, overheating leads to fires. And no RCCB/SRCD or OCB will help you there. An AFDD might (if there is an arc, which might be 50% of cases), but nobody has those because they are fairly new, very expensive and only code-required in some special types of buildings (care facilities, hospitals and such).
    - alexvoda 4y ago
      And for any of the socket types that have the same distance between prongs, Shuko plugs do not fit because the prongs are thicker. That is why the Europlug has insulated prongs. It fits where Shuko doesn't. You actually can not even build a non-recesed Shuko (grounded) socket, because the earth contacts are part of the housing.
      - throwaway294566 4y ago
        Right, exactly. And non-grounded Schuko Sockets are forbidden, at least in Germany (Europlug sockets are allowed if they only accept Europlugs, see the ones on the left side here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Euro-socket.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Euro-socket.jpg . No idea what the standard might be for those.)
  - alexvoda 4y ago
    Also, do not build male to male suicide cables. If you have a generator, install a proper input for the generator that disconnects the house from the grid when in use. These have a different connector. Besides, none of what you propose will save someone who builds a male to male cable. Darwin awards have to be awarded.
ssl232 4y ago
Do you mean that these plugs can be dropped onto some conducting material and cause a short? That's technically true but no sane electrical safety standard allows prongs on a plug to carry lethal current when exposed. It's required by European norms and doublessly most or all others around the world for devices, including plugs, for there to be no way barring multiple failures to the device for the user to receive a lethal shock from exposed terminals.