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Is anyone willing to speculate why Microsoft is supporting nodejs on Azure? Or their use of Github/git rather than TFS? Or the work on redis-win32? It seems lik

Is anyone willing to speculate why Microsoft is supporting nodejs on Azure? Or their use of Github/git rather than TFS? Or the work on redis-win32? It seems like a negative for developer mind share in the long run.

vyrotek 15y ago
Not sure, but Microsoft has some great evangelists who are pretty opened minded these days. Steve Marx comes to mind. I've personally met him and he is a pretty smart guy! He's posted tutorials on using various technologies such as Node, Python, Scala and Memcached on Azure. http://blog.smarx.com/ http://blog.smarx.com/ Then there are also other articles on consuming Azure services with clients written in many languages. http://blog.smarx.com/posts/windows-azure-storage-libraries-in-many-languages http://blog.smarx.com/posts/windows-azure-storage-libraries-...
- politician 15y ago
  As a .NET developer who is actively transitioning to these technologies myself, I applaud Steve & Co; nevertheless, I don't understand the strategy. I was hoping someone around here could explain why this is in their best interest.
  - planetjoe 15y ago
    MS is trying to push enterprises to move their datacenters to azure. To do this, they have to support a wide array of technologies such as java/memcached/ruby.
    - jondot 15y ago
      That's a great business strategy for them. But then again, they abandoned IronRuby, which is very frustrating. (what is the state of IronPython?). Sounds like two hands that aren't really in sync.
      - sirclueless 15y ago
        Microsoft employs 90,000 people. Do you honestly expect all of them to be in sync at all times? Besides, supporting third-party technologies on Azure and reimplementing open-source programming languages on top of the .NET framework seem tenuously related at best. That's actually one of the advantages of having a corporate agenda in my mind: things that are unlikely to gain traction with developers can be cut with impunity. It prevents fracturing and slowing down communities, all too common in the open-source world (think of the many, many variants of Lisp, or the recent explosion of LanguageX-to-javascript compilers).
dbettin 15y ago
Please elaborate on how this choice will lose developer mind share in the long run. In fact, it is quite the opposite.
- politician 15y ago
  Sure, by providing access to these Linux-germinated open-source technologies through Azure, Microsoft is endorsing them at the enterprise level where most of their mind share is (viz .NET). Enterprise projects allow Microsoft developers on-the-job training in alternative technologies without committing scarce "after hours / at home" time. These technologies are cheaper to implement elsewhere (Linux, other cheaper cloud providers, etc.). So, it seems like Microsoft is simply providing a way for .NET enterprise developers to migrate off their platform while being paid for it. Why is Microsoft increasing the supply of developers who can write code for non-Windows platforms?
cek 15y ago
I helped drive the Windows Phone 7 app platform engineering and evangelism efforts (I left MS in early Sept). I can't speak for the Azure folks, but I can tell you that as we built WP7 we recognized that one of our biggest challenges was reaching the hearts & minds of developers who had grown up outside the "MSDN tent". It was very clear (to me anyway) that we had to try extraordinary things to engage with those developers. I suspect the Azure team is thinking the same way. It's pretty clear that being insular isn't going to work anymore.
- politician 15y ago
  I've done some WP7 work, and was quite impressed with the platform; I loved seeing the influence of capabilities-based security in the APIs. But, WP7 demands an SL/XNA and .NET background. It seems like reaching non-Microsoft developers was/is a tall order whereas iOS can tolerate C,C++ or PhoneGap solutions. Do you feel that Microsoft had some success in bringing people into the tent?
  - cek 15y ago
    It's really hard to know for sure, but there are 40K apps and games in the WP7 marketplace. Just 13 months ago there were 0.
- jackowayed 15y ago
  Your email's not in your profile, so can you email me please (mine is in my profile)? I'm considering interning there this summer and would love to hear your opinion on it.
  - cek 15y ago
    It's in my profile. Not sure why HN is not letting you see it. You can contact me at charlie (at) kindel (dot) com
- antirez 15y ago
  I suspect that at this point it will be very, very hard to get the hearts of developers that are not into Microsoft, but I think this is not an entirely different effort of also conquering the hearts of normal users... at the point Microsoft is in how is perceived outside I think they need a spectacular change (a new CEO, with a new message), to publish a new version of the operating system that is not a mess, and then yes, to be more open. I doubt that supporting Node on Azure is going to really help as a first move.
bztzt 15y ago
I think they've recently decided that promoting .NET for its own sake, or even making money on dev tools, isn't a particularly strong goal of theirs and the tools business should have a primarily subordinate role supporting their platforms (Windows, Windows Server / Azure, Windows Phone). You can see this in their recent org chart changes (whereby not only is Scott Guthrie no longer VP of the .NET Platform, but there is no longer a unified .NET Platform team at all - instead, each part of the framework has now been moved to the org tree of some product it supports. WPF is part of Windows, ASP.NET is part of Azure, Silverlight is part of Windows Phone, the core CLR is part of Visual Studio, etc.) or even in the recent redesign of the MSDN front page (where "Platforms" are now front and center). This doesn't mean Microsoft is somehow out to kill or abandon .NET as I've seen some panicked .NET developers speculate recently, but it does mean they want .NET to be firmly in support of their platforms and not the other way around, and if there's a choice between doing something that will help .NET and something that will help Windows et al., they'll take the latter. In terms of "openness vs. lock-in" this is probably a lateral move - they're more open to Windows et al. being less locked into their tools (or their tools' revenue streams - e.g. the tools for Windows Phone and Win8 Metro style apps are a free download), but less open to their tools being less locked into Windows et al. (e.g. cross-platform Silverlight), or even the latest version of Windows (e.g. .NET 4.5 is Win7/8-only).
- politician 15y ago
  Would you be willing to speculate whether this pivot reflects the, in Microsoft's view, diminished threat of Java given its new home and a return to the status quo?

vyrotek 15y ago

Not sure, but Microsoft has some great evangelists who are pretty opened minded these days. Steve Marx comes to mind. I've personally met him and he is a pretty smart guy! He's posted tutorials on using various technologies such as Node, Python, Scala and Memcached on Azure. http://blog.smarx.com/ http://blog.smarx.com/ Then there are also other articles on consuming Azure services with clients written in many languages. http://blog.smarx.com/posts/windows-azure-storage-libraries-in-many-languages http://blog.smarx.com/posts/windows-azure-storage-libraries-...

politician 15y ago
As a .NET developer who is actively transitioning to these technologies myself, I applaud Steve & Co; nevertheless, I don't understand the strategy. I was hoping someone around here could explain why this is in their best interest.
- planetjoe 15y ago
  MS is trying to push enterprises to move their datacenters to azure. To do this, they have to support a wide array of technologies such as java/memcached/ruby.
  - jondot 15y ago
    That's a great business strategy for them. But then again, they abandoned IronRuby, which is very frustrating. (what is the state of IronPython?). Sounds like two hands that aren't really in sync.
    - sirclueless 15y ago
      Microsoft employs 90,000 people. Do you honestly expect all of them to be in sync at all times? Besides, supporting third-party technologies on Azure and reimplementing open-source programming languages on top of the .NET framework seem tenuously related at best. That's actually one of the advantages of having a corporate agenda in my mind: things that are unlikely to gain traction with developers can be cut with impunity. It prevents fracturing and slowing down communities, all too common in the open-source world (think of the many, many variants of Lisp, or the recent explosion of LanguageX-to-javascript compilers).

dbettin 15y ago

Please elaborate on how this choice will lose developer mind share in the long run. In fact, it is quite the opposite.

politician 15y ago
Sure, by providing access to these Linux-germinated open-source technologies through Azure, Microsoft is endorsing them at the enterprise level where most of their mind share is (viz .NET). Enterprise projects allow Microsoft developers on-the-job training in alternative technologies without committing scarce "after hours / at home" time. These technologies are cheaper to implement elsewhere (Linux, other cheaper cloud providers, etc.). So, it seems like Microsoft is simply providing a way for .NET enterprise developers to migrate off their platform while being paid for it. Why is Microsoft increasing the supply of developers who can write code for non-Windows platforms?

cek 15y ago

I helped drive the Windows Phone 7 app platform engineering and evangelism efforts (I left MS in early Sept). I can't speak for the Azure folks, but I can tell you that as we built WP7 we recognized that one of our biggest challenges was reaching the hearts & minds of developers who had grown up outside the "MSDN tent". It was very clear (to me anyway) that we had to try extraordinary things to engage with those developers. I suspect the Azure team is thinking the same way. It's pretty clear that being insular isn't going to work anymore.

politician 15y ago
I've done some WP7 work, and was quite impressed with the platform; I loved seeing the influence of capabilities-based security in the APIs. But, WP7 demands an SL/XNA and .NET background. It seems like reaching non-Microsoft developers was/is a tall order whereas iOS can tolerate C,C++ or PhoneGap solutions. Do you feel that Microsoft had some success in bringing people into the tent?
- cek 15y ago
  It's really hard to know for sure, but there are 40K apps and games in the WP7 marketplace. Just 13 months ago there were 0.
jackowayed 15y ago
Your email's not in your profile, so can you email me please (mine is in my profile)? I'm considering interning there this summer and would love to hear your opinion on it.
- cek 15y ago
  It's in my profile. Not sure why HN is not letting you see it. You can contact me at charlie (at) kindel (dot) com
antirez 15y ago
I suspect that at this point it will be very, very hard to get the hearts of developers that are not into Microsoft, but I think this is not an entirely different effort of also conquering the hearts of normal users... at the point Microsoft is in how is perceived outside I think they need a spectacular change (a new CEO, with a new message), to publish a new version of the operating system that is not a mess, and then yes, to be more open. I doubt that supporting Node on Azure is going to really help as a first move.

bztzt 15y ago

I think they've recently decided that promoting .NET for its own sake, or even making money on dev tools, isn't a particularly strong goal of theirs and the tools business should have a primarily subordinate role supporting their platforms (Windows, Windows Server / Azure, Windows Phone). You can see this in their recent org chart changes (whereby not only is Scott Guthrie no longer VP of the .NET Platform, but there is no longer a unified .NET Platform team at all - instead, each part of the framework has now been moved to the org tree of some product it supports. WPF is part of Windows, ASP.NET is part of Azure, Silverlight is part of Windows Phone, the core CLR is part of Visual Studio, etc.) or even in the recent redesign of the MSDN front page (where "Platforms" are now front and center). This doesn't mean Microsoft is somehow out to kill or abandon .NET as I've seen some panicked .NET developers speculate recently, but it does mean they want .NET to be firmly in support of their platforms and not the other way around, and if there's a choice between doing something that will help .NET and something that will help Windows et al., they'll take the latter. In terms of "openness vs. lock-in" this is probably a lateral move - they're more open to Windows et al. being less locked into their tools (or their tools' revenue streams - e.g. the tools for Windows Phone and Win8 Metro style apps are a free download), but less open to their tools being less locked into Windows et al. (e.g. cross-platform Silverlight), or even the latest version of Windows (e.g. .NET 4.5 is Win7/8-only).

politician 15y ago
Would you be willing to speculate whether this pivot reflects the, in Microsoft's view, diminished threat of Java given its new home and a return to the status quo?