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“ If you ask me to print my code and defend it in a meeting” Its not about “defending”, its about explaining. Even from your reply one can feel the instant def

“ If you ask me to print my code and defend it in a meeting” Its not about “defending”, its about explaining. Even from your reply one can feel the instant defensive position you take when asked about (your) code. I think ability to disassociate from your code and just be able to discuss it (not defend) and explain what and why (tradeoffs) and how was done is very valuable in developer, and in anyone actually if you extend it beyond the code. When take over a company ant talk with people and they take defensive position thats a red flag for me. (I take over companies in my head only so far)

the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
That’s a ridiculous position. I would expect good engineers to laugh at the entire process and not see a future in that company. There is no way that engineers can be accurately assessed on code output. It doesn’t matter if it’s about defending or explaining. Either one is an absolutely absurd situation to find yourself in where you have to explain stuff to people with zero context to save your job. If I was given these instructions I’m out.
- vincnetas 4y ago
  why do you think that explaining something is ridiculous? i have been to meetings multiple times with representatives of other departmens and openly asked them to explain to me things that i didnt knew and needed to get understanding to implement some functionality. why its ridiculous when its other way arround and someone asks to explain what and why is this code doing? again, it looks like ypure taking it personally.
  - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
    It’s ridiculous because this is not genuine interest in someone’s work but a way to sieve out at scale. (I don’t have a horse in this race. I don’t work there. So not sure why you think I’m taking this personally)
    - downvote_magnet 4y ago
      > not genuine interest in someone's work That's your threshold for asking employees to summarize what they've been doing recently? Management must have some profound interest in the feature being delivered and how it was implemented? Question: have you ever managed people? And if so, how many?
      - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
        Intention and context matters. The goal here is clearly to significantly downsize the operations with the least amount of severance to be paid. I won’t go into your ad hominem.
        throwaway09223 4y ago
        Your anger with what's going on is coming through clearly. It sounds like you don't approve of any of the steps being taken because it's a downsizing. While you're entitled to your opinion, it doesn't seem particularly relevant in discussions about whether or not this process is effective.
optymizer 4y ago
On the contrary, I'm more than happy to discuss my code with my colleagues, because their intent is to understand the code. In the hypothetical scenario, the new owner's intent is to evaluate my worth, not my code.
- vincnetas 4y ago
  is there something wrong to evaluate your worth? and explaining your worth through the things that you have done (recently) is in my opinion one of most direct ways to do so. no one wants your code just for fun of it or it beying extra nice and smart. code is neded becauae it creates value.
  - optymizer 4y ago
    In general? No, because I agreed to yearly evaluations. Randomly asking me to prove my worth like my time so far didnt matter? Yes, there is, and the company being sold is a random event from my point of view. The question itself comes from a place of authority, and the employee has nothing to gain, only to lose. Best case - I keep my job. Worst case - I get fired. That introduces stress into my life unnecessarily. The new owners can go and read past evaluations instead of boiling the ocean. But, of course they won't do that. It's much easier to assert your authority and stress everyone out, to make sure they know that they are just resources churning out code. If you step out of the soulless business mindset for one second, I'm sure you'll understand why asking me to prove my worth out of the blue is insulting. "Prove your worth to the new gods, employee #1337!" No, thanks.
    - hnfong 4y ago
      > No, thanks. Not sure from which perspective you're saying "No" from? If you were a Twitter employee, that means quitting. But apparently from what you just said you don't want to lose your job. (There's no stress if getting fired is something that doesn't bother you) Or from a management perspective? In which case I think vincnetas did a good job explaining why management might want to do this if they wanted to downsize. Basically you're saying the concept of laying off people is a ridiculous viewpoint because it makes employees feel stressed. Sure this is just a discussion forum and we're all free to express opinions, but realistically, what makes you think an employee can say "No, thanks" to this?

the_mitsuhiko 4y ago

That’s a ridiculous position. I would expect good engineers to laugh at the entire process and not see a future in that company. There is no way that engineers can be accurately assessed on code output. It doesn’t matter if it’s about defending or explaining. Either one is an absolutely absurd situation to find yourself in where you have to explain stuff to people with zero context to save your job. If I was given these instructions I’m out.

vincnetas 4y ago
why do you think that explaining something is ridiculous? i have been to meetings multiple times with representatives of other departmens and openly asked them to explain to me things that i didnt knew and needed to get understanding to implement some functionality. why its ridiculous when its other way arround and someone asks to explain what and why is this code doing? again, it looks like ypure taking it personally.
- the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
  It’s ridiculous because this is not genuine interest in someone’s work but a way to sieve out at scale. (I don’t have a horse in this race. I don’t work there. So not sure why you think I’m taking this personally)
  - downvote_magnet 4y ago
    > not genuine interest in someone's work That's your threshold for asking employees to summarize what they've been doing recently? Management must have some profound interest in the feature being delivered and how it was implemented? Question: have you ever managed people? And if so, how many?
    - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
      Intention and context matters. The goal here is clearly to significantly downsize the operations with the least amount of severance to be paid. I won’t go into your ad hominem.
      - throwaway09223 4y ago
        Your anger with what's going on is coming through clearly. It sounds like you don't approve of any of the steps being taken because it's a downsizing. While you're entitled to your opinion, it doesn't seem particularly relevant in discussions about whether or not this process is effective.

optymizer 4y ago

On the contrary, I'm more than happy to discuss my code with my colleagues, because their intent is to understand the code. In the hypothetical scenario, the new owner's intent is to evaluate my worth, not my code.

vincnetas 4y ago
is there something wrong to evaluate your worth? and explaining your worth through the things that you have done (recently) is in my opinion one of most direct ways to do so. no one wants your code just for fun of it or it beying extra nice and smart. code is neded becauae it creates value.
- optymizer 4y ago
  In general? No, because I agreed to yearly evaluations. Randomly asking me to prove my worth like my time so far didnt matter? Yes, there is, and the company being sold is a random event from my point of view. The question itself comes from a place of authority, and the employee has nothing to gain, only to lose. Best case - I keep my job. Worst case - I get fired. That introduces stress into my life unnecessarily. The new owners can go and read past evaluations instead of boiling the ocean. But, of course they won't do that. It's much easier to assert your authority and stress everyone out, to make sure they know that they are just resources churning out code. If you step out of the soulless business mindset for one second, I'm sure you'll understand why asking me to prove my worth out of the blue is insulting. "Prove your worth to the new gods, employee #1337!" No, thanks.
  - hnfong 4y ago
    > No, thanks. Not sure from which perspective you're saying "No" from? If you were a Twitter employee, that means quitting. But apparently from what you just said you don't want to lose your job. (There's no stress if getting fired is something that doesn't bother you) Or from a management perspective? In which case I think vincnetas did a good job explaining why management might want to do this if they wanted to downsize. Basically you're saying the concept of laying off people is a ridiculous viewpoint because it makes employees feel stressed. Sure this is just a discussion forum and we're all free to express opinions, but realistically, what makes you think an employee can say "No, thanks" to this?