13 ms·

I've only seen this madness in the US. The first time they took my card away from my sight I went with them to see what the heck they were doing. Crazy system,

by vasco 4y ago

I've only seen this madness in the US. The first time they took my card away from my sight I went with them to see what the heck they were doing. Crazy system, unsafe for no reason, they can bring terminal to you in the same amount of time, no signatures needed either. All of Europe works as you described, few countries in Africa I've been in the same, I wonder how it came to be like this in the US.

ryanschneider 4y ago
> I wonder how it came to be like this in the US. Before credit cards were handled electronically the server used to have to use one of these to make a carbon paper imprint of your card: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_imprinter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_imprinter While they a weren’t _huge_ they weren’t very easy to bring to the table and use, so I imagine we just got used to the experience of the server running off with our card. In wasn’t until the pandemic that I noticed most restaurants using handheld terminals.
- erik_seaberg 4y ago
  In 2005 we were still using knuckle busters with airport shuttle customers who didn’t prepay. Also alpha pagers, VHF radios, and Thomas Guide paper maps. I have to admit they were all reliable out in the middle of nowhere.
- sircastor 4y ago
  I actually used one of these at an Apple Store a several years ago because their payment processing was down. I didn’t have a iPhone at the time, so the alternative was the least-elegant, non-Apple-ish solution ever.
  - brewdad 4y ago
    Even that solution wouldn't work today. My cards are all moving to a smooth surface with the card number printed on the backside. I still have a few cards with the raised numbering but each new replacement card I get, as the old ones expire, is the flat style.
nhf 4y ago
A few reasons: 1. We adopted chip cards quite late, so a lot of legacy hardware still exists - including payment terminals built into restaurant point of sale machines with a magnetic strip reader, instead of a separate card terminal. 2. Wireless card terminals are not common in the US, outside of things like Square or Toast readers. Readers are usually hardwired to the POS and aren't able to be "undocked" and carried around. 3. Outside of contactless, signatures are still usually required, and people are still used to having the receipt printer at the host stand alongside the terminal, instead of built into the card reader. This is all slowly changing, and I honestly chock a lot of it up to stuff like smartphone payments (remember, we got Apple Pay before having contactless embedded in the majority of cards!) and smartphone-based POS systems like Square.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  Contactless cards did appear in the US before Apple pay. I had one issued in 2006. It was just rarely supported by vendors and disappeared as the banks lost interest.
lxgr 4y ago
Besides being historically grown like that, I see two major differences to the rest of the world: Credit cards have no PIN in the US (and debit cards can usually be used without one as well), which makes this approach possible in the first place, and the tipping culture that can make it desirable to get a quiet moment with the check to figure out amounts. Practically, it also means that even larger restaurants usually only need very few POS terminals at a central location, rather than one per waiter, requiring wireless infrastructure in larger restaurants etc. This is changing very fast, though – I‘m seeing both combined order and payment handheld devices (that support tap-to-pay, i.e. also Apple Pay) as well as the QR payment solution in more and more places.
- timidiceball 4y ago
  > rather than one per waiter Just want to correct this idea which has been repeated several times on this topic: You only need 3 or 4 for a larger restaurant. The entire restaurant does not pay simultaneously. When you (the server) are done with them you just put them back in a charging dock or some other communal space.
  - lxgr 4y ago
    Sure, that is possible too, but what I‘m seeing frequently in the US is a new type of combined order management and payment handheld. It makes a lot of sense, in my view: Handling orders tickets digitally is probably incredibl useful for the kitchen (especially considering a mix of dine-in and takeout orders). From there, it‘s only a small (ok, not really small because PCI-DSS, but at least possible) step to also having these things do payments.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  Speaking for Sweden: all cards support contactless payments now, and you don't need to input PIN for amounts that comfortably cover restaurant bills.
  - xxs 4y ago
    It's like that everywhere in the EU (UK/Europe overall) - the card providers are the same, either way - Visa and MasterCard. However, each country has a max amount to use without PIN (usually around ~50euro[0]), and PIN can be requested regardless. While 50euro is on the low side of a dinner bill, it's likely okay when paying for a single person only. [0]: The European Banking Authority (EBA) calls on traders to make use of the exemption for strong customer authentication up to 50 € as allowed under Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2018/389.
ahefner 4y ago
And, from a US perspective, that sounds absurdly overly dramatic and worrisome. The server is there to serve you, and the amount of money on the line is so comically small as to be hardly of concern. Sending them off with your card in hand is a semi-logical extension of sending them off with cash and expecting them to return with change.
- gizmo686 4y ago
  I've never expected change when I pay with cash at a restaurant. Admittedly, this is mostly because of our crazy tip culture; but I just round the charge+tip to a convenient amount. The money on the line with handing your card to the server is not comically small. They can max out your credit card with whatever charges they want. They don't even need to go through their POS system, as they can charge your card with any online retailer.
  - vinay427 4y ago
    Fraud on credit cards from theft or merchants incorrectly billing is also far more protected in the US than in most any European country, and probably most other countries as well. It’s far less of a consideration in one’s mind when every bank I’ve had in the US defaults to believing the card owner over the merchant unless proven otherwise. These protections are more “balanced” between both sides in a place like Switzerland, for instance.
    - kergonath 4y ago
      > Fraud on credit cards from theft or merchants incorrectly billing is also far more protected in the US than in most any European country, and probably most other countries as well. It’s a common comment from Americans, but is misleading at the very least. I have never even heard of a fraudulent transaction that was not reversed almost immediately, and I have been living in 3 EU countries (well, one of them ex-EU now). The procedure is: call the bank, notify them, they suspend the card and send you a new one (usually for free once a year or so, for about €20 after that). Usually they call you before you notice it; they are very good at spotting this. It’s the same thing for card-present fraud: you have some time to declare your card lost or stolen, and all the transactions after the time you lost it are reversed. Your liability is €50 for the transactions that happened before you called them, and nothing afterwards. I am willing to believe that consumer protection is better in the US for some specific aspects, but I am yet to see relevant examples.
fnordpiglet 4y ago
Because it used to have to be like this and Americans are incredibly stubborn and refuse change, especially in rituals like paying.
el-salvador 4y ago
Chip and pin cards are uncommon in Central America, it’s mostly tourists that use them. I’ve seen here waiters asking for the pin, writing it down on a piece of paper, and taking the card back to the POS terminal.

by vasco 4y ago

ryanschneider 4y ago

> I wonder how it came to be like this in the US. Before credit cards were handled electronically the server used to have to use one of these to make a carbon paper imprint of your card: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_imprinter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_imprinter While they a weren’t _huge_ they weren’t very easy to bring to the table and use, so I imagine we just got used to the experience of the server running off with our card. In wasn’t until the pandemic that I noticed most restaurants using handheld terminals.

erik_seaberg 4y ago
In 2005 we were still using knuckle busters with airport shuttle customers who didn’t prepay. Also alpha pagers, VHF radios, and Thomas Guide paper maps. I have to admit they were all reliable out in the middle of nowhere.
sircastor 4y ago
I actually used one of these at an Apple Store a several years ago because their payment processing was down. I didn’t have a iPhone at the time, so the alternative was the least-elegant, non-Apple-ish solution ever.
- brewdad 4y ago
  Even that solution wouldn't work today. My cards are all moving to a smooth surface with the card number printed on the backside. I still have a few cards with the raised numbering but each new replacement card I get, as the old ones expire, is the flat style.

nhf 4y ago

A few reasons: 1. We adopted chip cards quite late, so a lot of legacy hardware still exists - including payment terminals built into restaurant point of sale machines with a magnetic strip reader, instead of a separate card terminal. 2. Wireless card terminals are not common in the US, outside of things like Square or Toast readers. Readers are usually hardwired to the POS and aren't able to be "undocked" and carried around. 3. Outside of contactless, signatures are still usually required, and people are still used to having the receipt printer at the host stand alongside the terminal, instead of built into the card reader. This is all slowly changing, and I honestly chock a lot of it up to stuff like smartphone payments (remember, we got Apple Pay before having contactless embedded in the majority of cards!) and smartphone-based POS systems like Square.

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
Contactless cards did appear in the US before Apple pay. I had one issued in 2006. It was just rarely supported by vendors and disappeared as the banks lost interest.

lxgr 4y ago

Besides being historically grown like that, I see two major differences to the rest of the world: Credit cards have no PIN in the US (and debit cards can usually be used without one as well), which makes this approach possible in the first place, and the tipping culture that can make it desirable to get a quiet moment with the check to figure out amounts. Practically, it also means that even larger restaurants usually only need very few POS terminals at a central location, rather than one per waiter, requiring wireless infrastructure in larger restaurants etc. This is changing very fast, though – I‘m seeing both combined order and payment handheld devices (that support tap-to-pay, i.e. also Apple Pay) as well as the QR payment solution in more and more places.

timidiceball 4y ago
> rather than one per waiter Just want to correct this idea which has been repeated several times on this topic: You only need 3 or 4 for a larger restaurant. The entire restaurant does not pay simultaneously. When you (the server) are done with them you just put them back in a charging dock or some other communal space.
- lxgr 4y ago
  Sure, that is possible too, but what I‘m seeing frequently in the US is a new type of combined order management and payment handheld. It makes a lot of sense, in my view: Handling orders tickets digitally is probably incredibl useful for the kitchen (especially considering a mix of dine-in and takeout orders). From there, it‘s only a small (ok, not really small because PCI-DSS, but at least possible) step to also having these things do payments.
dmitriid 4y ago
Speaking for Sweden: all cards support contactless payments now, and you don't need to input PIN for amounts that comfortably cover restaurant bills.
- xxs 4y ago
  It's like that everywhere in the EU (UK/Europe overall) - the card providers are the same, either way - Visa and MasterCard. However, each country has a max amount to use without PIN (usually around ~50euro[0]), and PIN can be requested regardless. While 50euro is on the low side of a dinner bill, it's likely okay when paying for a single person only. [0]: The European Banking Authority (EBA) calls on traders to make use of the exemption for strong customer authentication up to 50 € as allowed under Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2018/389.

ahefner 4y ago

And, from a US perspective, that sounds absurdly overly dramatic and worrisome. The server is there to serve you, and the amount of money on the line is so comically small as to be hardly of concern. Sending them off with your card in hand is a semi-logical extension of sending them off with cash and expecting them to return with change.

gizmo686 4y ago
I've never expected change when I pay with cash at a restaurant. Admittedly, this is mostly because of our crazy tip culture; but I just round the charge+tip to a convenient amount. The money on the line with handing your card to the server is not comically small. They can max out your credit card with whatever charges they want. They don't even need to go through their POS system, as they can charge your card with any online retailer.
- vinay427 4y ago
  Fraud on credit cards from theft or merchants incorrectly billing is also far more protected in the US than in most any European country, and probably most other countries as well. It’s far less of a consideration in one’s mind when every bank I’ve had in the US defaults to believing the card owner over the merchant unless proven otherwise. These protections are more “balanced” between both sides in a place like Switzerland, for instance.
  - kergonath 4y ago
    > Fraud on credit cards from theft or merchants incorrectly billing is also far more protected in the US than in most any European country, and probably most other countries as well. It’s a common comment from Americans, but is misleading at the very least. I have never even heard of a fraudulent transaction that was not reversed almost immediately, and I have been living in 3 EU countries (well, one of them ex-EU now). The procedure is: call the bank, notify them, they suspend the card and send you a new one (usually for free once a year or so, for about €20 after that). Usually they call you before you notice it; they are very good at spotting this. It’s the same thing for card-present fraud: you have some time to declare your card lost or stolen, and all the transactions after the time you lost it are reversed. Your liability is €50 for the transactions that happened before you called them, and nothing afterwards. I am willing to believe that consumer protection is better in the US for some specific aspects, but I am yet to see relevant examples.

fnordpiglet 4y ago

Because it used to have to be like this and Americans are incredibly stubborn and refuse change, especially in rituals like paying.

el-salvador 4y ago

Chip and pin cards are uncommon in Central America, it’s mostly tourists that use them. I’ve seen here waiters asking for the pin, writing it down on a piece of paper, and taking the card back to the POS terminal.