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>Bullshit. I'm a web engineer, and I wouldn't be competent to audit code that runs Space X's rockets, nor would anyone I know in my career space. You're still

>Bullshit. I'm a web engineer, and I wouldn't be competent to audit code that runs Space X's rockets, nor would anyone I know in my career space. You're still missing the point. It isn't about knowing how rockets work or anything in particular. It's about being able to search for and recognize issues.

uoaei 4y ago
I implore you to consider that auditing code is more than just big-O analyses.
- Nicksil 4y ago
  >I implore you to consider that auditing code is more than just big-O analyses. That isn't at all what I said nor implied.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    You seem to have fooled literally every person replying to your post, then. Perhaps consider that your reactionary post was not quite as "rational" as you'd like to believe, or at least that you haven't yet said what you mean.
    - Nicksil 4y ago
      >You seem to have fooled literally every person replying to your post, then. Fooled? No. >Perhaps consider that your reactionary post was not quite as "rational" as you'd like to believe, or at least that you haven't yet said what you mean. What part of any of my comments are reactionary? What have I said that I don't mean? I genuinely don't understand.
inerte 4y ago
At Twitter's scale the issues are far less about "this code smells funny" but how dozens of systems interact together. Ain't nobody gonna figure out problems by simply checking out a handful of repositories, and specially in a few hours / days.
- Nicksil 4y ago
  >At Twitter's scale the issues are far less about "this code smells funny" but how dozens of systems interact together. Ain't nobody gonna figure out problems by simply checking out a repository, and specially in a few hours / days. I don't know why you think someone would have to know about Twitter's specific implementation of distributed systems in order to inspect those systems for non-twitter-specfifc issues.
  - inerte 4y ago
    Ack, and thanks for your comment. I am choosing to disengage from this conversation, have fun!
    - Nicksil 4y ago
      >Ack, and thanks for your comment. I am choosing to disengage from this conversation, have fun! Sorry, what was it about my comment you vehemently disagree with?
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    Issues such as what?
    - Nicksil 4y ago
      >Issues such as what? Such as those which do not meet the standards defined for the particular audit.
      - saagarjha 4y ago
        I mean, you can do a very general audit of things like “is there CI” or “do they use horribly unsafe serialization everywhere” but I don’t see anything beyond this without a huge amount of effort.
        Nicksil 4y ago
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
I'm not missing the point. "Searching for and recognizing issues" is not somehow completely independent from the domain of the code in question. More importantly, different domains often have completely different primary concerns. E.g. web app engineering is often concerned with reducing cycle time because the technology means that you can instantly release updates. That's obviously very different from the concerns of launching a rocket, and I would expect them to have very different engineering practices. In short, experience matters.
- Nicksil 4y ago
  >I'm not missing the point. "Searching for and recognizing issues" is not somehow completely independent from the domain of the code in question. More importantly, different domains often have completely different primary concerns. E.g. web app engineering is often concerned with reducing cycle time because the technology means that you can instantly release updates. That's obviously very different from the concerns of launching a rocket, and I would expect them to have very different engineering practices. >In short, experience matters. Is this based off real experience in the field of auditing?
- kelnos 4y ago
  I don't think Musk is looking for an itemized bug list. He's probably more interested in overall code quality, estimates on the level of technical debt, and a qualitative feel about the state of things. While a distributed systems person would have an easier go of that, I think most decently-well-rounded software developers would provide value there. Also remember that Telsa runs their own distributed systems to support the connected features of their cars. Certainly that's not the same as Twitter, but it's definitely in the same ballpark.
moooo99 4y ago
> You're still missing the point. It isn't about knowing how rockets work or anything in particular. It's about being able to search for and recognize issues. Still, the issues you'll likely encounter inside a car are very very different from the ones you'll see inside a historically grown distributed system serving millions of web, app and API requests. Auditing code is more than analyzing runtime/memory complexity. Thats not to say it's impossible for Tesla engineers to audit. But I'd imagine it would take quite a bit of time to gather meaningful insight into the landscape and would hardly be an efficient use of the time of senior Tesla engineers.
- Nicksil 4y ago
  >Still, the issues you'll likely encounter inside a car are very very different from the ones you'll see inside [...] There are many systems involved in those cars, there's also many people working for those kind of companies who do not solely "work on cars." >Auditing code is more than analyzing runtime/memory complexity. I agree. >Thats not to say it's impossible for Tesla engineers to audit. But I'd imagine it would take quite a bit of time to gather meaningful insight into the landscape and would hardly be an efficient use of the time of senior Tesla engineers. Take longer than if the team were comprised of Twitter staff or who are already familiar with Twitter's infrastructure and code base? Sure. But that's the case with just about any audit conducted by an outside entity.

uoaei 4y ago

I implore you to consider that auditing code is more than just big-O analyses.

Nicksil 4y ago
>I implore you to consider that auditing code is more than just big-O analyses. That isn't at all what I said nor implied.
- uoaei 4y ago
  You seem to have fooled literally every person replying to your post, then. Perhaps consider that your reactionary post was not quite as "rational" as you'd like to believe, or at least that you haven't yet said what you mean.
  - Nicksil 4y ago
    >You seem to have fooled literally every person replying to your post, then. Fooled? No. >Perhaps consider that your reactionary post was not quite as "rational" as you'd like to believe, or at least that you haven't yet said what you mean. What part of any of my comments are reactionary? What have I said that I don't mean? I genuinely don't understand.

inerte 4y ago

At Twitter's scale the issues are far less about "this code smells funny" but how dozens of systems interact together. Ain't nobody gonna figure out problems by simply checking out a handful of repositories, and specially in a few hours / days.

Nicksil 4y ago
>At Twitter's scale the issues are far less about "this code smells funny" but how dozens of systems interact together. Ain't nobody gonna figure out problems by simply checking out a repository, and specially in a few hours / days. I don't know why you think someone would have to know about Twitter's specific implementation of distributed systems in order to inspect those systems for non-twitter-specfifc issues.
- inerte 4y ago
  Ack, and thanks for your comment. I am choosing to disengage from this conversation, have fun!
  - Nicksil 4y ago
    >Ack, and thanks for your comment. I am choosing to disengage from this conversation, have fun! Sorry, what was it about my comment you vehemently disagree with?
- saagarjha 4y ago
  Issues such as what?
  - Nicksil 4y ago
    >Issues such as what? Such as those which do not meet the standards defined for the particular audit.
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      I mean, you can do a very general audit of things like “is there CI” or “do they use horribly unsafe serialization everywhere” but I don’t see anything beyond this without a huge amount of effort.
      - Nicksil 4y ago

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

I'm not missing the point. "Searching for and recognizing issues" is not somehow completely independent from the domain of the code in question. More importantly, different domains often have completely different primary concerns. E.g. web app engineering is often concerned with reducing cycle time because the technology means that you can instantly release updates. That's obviously very different from the concerns of launching a rocket, and I would expect them to have very different engineering practices. In short, experience matters.

Nicksil 4y ago
>I'm not missing the point. "Searching for and recognizing issues" is not somehow completely independent from the domain of the code in question. More importantly, different domains often have completely different primary concerns. E.g. web app engineering is often concerned with reducing cycle time because the technology means that you can instantly release updates. That's obviously very different from the concerns of launching a rocket, and I would expect them to have very different engineering practices. >In short, experience matters. Is this based off real experience in the field of auditing?
kelnos 4y ago
I don't think Musk is looking for an itemized bug list. He's probably more interested in overall code quality, estimates on the level of technical debt, and a qualitative feel about the state of things. While a distributed systems person would have an easier go of that, I think most decently-well-rounded software developers would provide value there. Also remember that Telsa runs their own distributed systems to support the connected features of their cars. Certainly that's not the same as Twitter, but it's definitely in the same ballpark.

moooo99 4y ago

> You're still missing the point. It isn't about knowing how rockets work or anything in particular. It's about being able to search for and recognize issues. Still, the issues you'll likely encounter inside a car are very very different from the ones you'll see inside a historically grown distributed system serving millions of web, app and API requests. Auditing code is more than analyzing runtime/memory complexity. Thats not to say it's impossible for Tesla engineers to audit. But I'd imagine it would take quite a bit of time to gather meaningful insight into the landscape and would hardly be an efficient use of the time of senior Tesla engineers.

Nicksil 4y ago
>Still, the issues you'll likely encounter inside a car are very very different from the ones you'll see inside [...] There are many systems involved in those cars, there's also many people working for those kind of companies who do not solely "work on cars." >Auditing code is more than analyzing runtime/memory complexity. I agree. >Thats not to say it's impossible for Tesla engineers to audit. But I'd imagine it would take quite a bit of time to gather meaningful insight into the landscape and would hardly be an efficient use of the time of senior Tesla engineers. Take longer than if the team were comprised of Twitter staff or who are already familiar with Twitter's infrastructure and code base? Sure. But that's the case with just about any audit conducted by an outside entity.