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Zero. Apple tries really hard to pretend they own the relationship between the user and the app developer, when in reality they do nothing to deserve it. Most a

Zero. Apple tries really hard to pretend they own the relationship between the user and the app developer, when in reality they do nothing to deserve it. Most app developers, Telegram included, treat the app store as a nuisance, pain-in-the-butt of an obstacle they have to clear to have presence on iOS devices. It provides negative value to them. All the discovery features are irrelevant to them. They do their own marketing and could as well have done their own distribution if Apple allowed sideloading.

hammock 4y ago
Apple created the platform in which the apps run, and without which (or an alternative platform, which can and do exist) the apps could not exist. That has to count for something. A similar example would be gaming consoles. The console makers definitely take a cut of all the games that are released on their platform
- grishka 4y ago
  iPhones already cost money. That certainly covers all the R&D that went into them. Then there's also the $99/year for the developer account.
  - gwd 4y ago
    > That certainly covers all the R&D that went into them. Ref? On the contrary, it's likely that getting rid of the Apple Tax would mean needing to significantly reduce development and maintenance of the software. Think also of how the incentives work: If Apple is paid only when people buy a new phone, that adds pressure to shorten the lifespan of the software on the phone. If Apple is paid on an ongoing basis as the phone is used, this pressure is reduced, leading to longer-life phones.
    - grishka 4y ago
      iOS is already feature-complete and has been for quite some time. No one would be especially sad if it stopped updating except for security patches, new hardware features, and bug fixes.
      - neongreen 4y ago
        I would be sad. Passkeys, built-in OCR, "Sign in with Apple", offline Siri are all from the past three years. But also.. over the past several years I've grown to regard all new features as "god, _of course_ computers should be able to do that". So from my point of view iOS is neither "feature-complete" nor even "good enough". I'm annoyed that the future is coming much more slowly than it should, but I'm still thankful to Apple that it's coming. One tiny example: "Lift object from background" seems like a gimmick, but in my head it's more like a completely natural feature that we just didn't have for whatever reason. For me, images are very naturally composed of _things_. All those standalone features like "face recognition", "dog breed recognition", "plant recognition", "lift object from background", "search by location" should just be one feature: the phone should see photos as collections of things in space, and it should know what those things are, because I know what those things are. Eh. One day we'll get there.
    - tootie 4y ago
      Proof is in the pudding. They have like a 40% profit margin. They are not just keeping pace with the cost of innovation. They are charging the absolute maximum the market will allow and squeezing suppliers for every nickel because no one can stop them.
      - saurik 4y ago
        Yeah: it isn't like Apple is spending their money on R&D or operations and they just have some extremely elaborate and overly expensive way of providing value to the customer that someone might value... they are literally just hoarding a ridiculous and almost embarrassingly large amount of cash. They have a money-printer that is being defended with anti-competitive lock-in mechanisms. https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-funds/sectors/sp500-companies-stockpile-1-trillion-cash-investors-want-it/ https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-funds/sectors/sp500-compa... > Apple alone last week reported sitting on $202.5 billion in cash and investments. That's 7.4% of all the S&P 500's cash. And it's up nearly 4% from 2021.
  - hammock 4y ago
    Historically mobile phone hardware is a loss leader for the platform products that they afford access to. Just look at cell service providers giving them away for free, or at Amazon Fire Phone.
    - grishka 4y ago
      > Just look at cell service providers giving them away for free In North America which is in a different universe in this regard compared to the rest of the world. Where I'm from, carriers sell SIM cards and that's it. Postpaid plans aren't a thing. You buy your phone separately in an electronics store, for full price. This applies to iPhones as well.
      - hammock 4y ago
        You ignored Amazon fire phone. Another example would be gaming consoles. The console makers definitely take a cut of all the games that are released on their platform
        rocketbop 4y ago
        There is a difference with games consoles, in that games do not compete with each other in the same way. Someone might buy Zelda by Nintendo, but also buy a third party RPG. Very few people will pay for Apple Music and Spotify at the same time. I also see many people saying that they won't install WhatsApp, and will only use iMessage. As long as Apple competes directly with its own customers the platform will be unfair.
        grishka 4y ago
        > You ignored Amazon fire phone. Yes, because I have no idea why it is so apparently special. I do know that they sell kindles so cheaply because they hope people would be buying books from them. > Another example would be gaming consoles. Except those are never marketed as general-purpose pocket computer devices like iPhones are. They are appliances. Getting your hands onto an SDK for a gaming console requires being a company, signing an NDA, and probably committing to lots of other conditions.
  - neongreen 4y ago
    I'd like Apple to have more money than just covering the R&D, because I believe they can do unrelated cool things with it (VR, Mac improvements, Apple Car, whatever).
- slimsag 4y ago
  Would you be OK with Chrome blocking all websites that do not use Google as a payment processor, and them taking a 30% cut? They built the platform where websites run, and other platforms exist..
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    False equivalency as chrome doesn’t host the websites.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - e3bc54b2 4y ago
      Neither does Apple. Beyond providing initial download the apps run on phones paid for by users and any back end runs on servers paid for by developer.
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        Apple hosts the apps binaries and provides the services for reviews and payments. If they don’t like it they can focus on Android, and if iPhone users don’t like apple’s policies they can switch to android or pine phones as well.
        cudgy 4y ago
        I assume you’d feel the same way if your cellular networks or internet provider started charging fees for all purchases using their networks. How about a refrigerator monopoly charging for food you put in your refrigerator?
        endisneigh 4y ago
        Not really the same. It’s be more like complaining that you have to pay to put your games on the PlayStation store or sell them at Walmart.
- kybernetyk 4y ago
  that platform is nothing magic. it's just a general purpose computing device for your pocket.
  - neongreen 4y ago
    "Just"? A general purpose computing device for your pocket is a kind of a huge achievement.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      Sure. And I have paid quite a huge sum for this thing so I should get to decide how I want to “general purpose use it”.
- kaba0 4y ago
  A similar example would be a road. Mobile phones are so ingrained in our every day lives, they shouldn’t be that controlled by a single private entity. The same way Facebook and the like shouldn’t be able to unidirectionally control what is and is not publishable on their platforms, because after a certain size these cute little “private company decides who it wants to do service with” rules simply break down. Like, honestly, do you think it is fair that google and apple could potentially display any sort of message to pretty much the whole of society? They are crazy powerful entities to the point where they are a new pillar of power next to the standard Legislature, Executive, Judiciary.
  - hammock 4y ago
    Haha yes! And toll roads are very common, people do gripe about them, but they are generally accepted. Plus local businesses, that are connected by the roads to their customers, pay taxes to the municipality which built the roads.
goldcd 4y ago
Yes, this. If I was to switch from Android to Apple, I'd first re-buy the apps I currently own. I wouldn't be rebuying them because Apple had brokered the interaction in some way - I'd just be using the single option I have to get the apps I want onto the phone in my hand. There might be some new smart-phone user out there that buys apps based solely on recommendations from the store, but this is a minority (and maybe an argument for allowing paid promotion of apps, like everywhere else). Stepping back to the point, I'm guessing 99%+ of Telegram users decided to use Telegram for reasons outside of the App Store. Seems ridiculous that Apple has any claim to the income those apps generate. Maybe if US or EU wanted to fix this (without forcing apple to allow 3rd party installs), a solution might be to just get rid of 'free' apps. Say every app costs $1 to install (if kept for 12 months) and 10c a year to provide updates - and then it's up to the app dev to cover the costs to Apple if they want it to be "free" to the user.
- dvngnt_ 4y ago
  that's a much worse idea especially for hobby or open source applications
tootie 4y ago
They own the app store. The don't allow competing stores or side loading. They own the app certification and charge a fee for it. They don't license any software or permit VMs. They broke Flash and keep their browser a generation behind so anyone trying to deliver a good user experience needs a native app. They block data collection because it hurts Google. They've been anticompetitive for years and everyone just accepts it. They're as bad or worse than Google or Amazon but coast on their brand halo to get away with it.
kaba0 4y ago
Side note: the app store is literally beyond useless from a discoverability point of view. It will often fail to display an app which are almost perfect matches and may only show it on perfect string equality.. was that shit made by some junior in a naive way? Oh and on the front page you get like the exact same selection of apps on the thousandth “our productivity picks” list.. I think they could probably significantly increase their app store revenue not by increasing the price, but by actually showing the users apps they would actually want to download..
- cudgy 4y ago
  This is a valid criticism. The app store provides little, if any, advertising or even ease of discoverability for 99.9% of apps on its app store. Charging 30% or any percentage of sales for that matter within apps when Apple provides little marketing value beyond producing the device and a simple catalog of apps is excessive.

hammock 4y ago

Apple created the platform in which the apps run, and without which (or an alternative platform, which can and do exist) the apps could not exist. That has to count for something. A similar example would be gaming consoles. The console makers definitely take a cut of all the games that are released on their platform

grishka 4y ago
iPhones already cost money. That certainly covers all the R&D that went into them. Then there's also the $99/year for the developer account.
- gwd 4y ago
  > That certainly covers all the R&D that went into them. Ref? On the contrary, it's likely that getting rid of the Apple Tax would mean needing to significantly reduce development and maintenance of the software. Think also of how the incentives work: If Apple is paid only when people buy a new phone, that adds pressure to shorten the lifespan of the software on the phone. If Apple is paid on an ongoing basis as the phone is used, this pressure is reduced, leading to longer-life phones.
  - grishka 4y ago
    iOS is already feature-complete and has been for quite some time. No one would be especially sad if it stopped updating except for security patches, new hardware features, and bug fixes.
    - neongreen 4y ago
      I would be sad. Passkeys, built-in OCR, "Sign in with Apple", offline Siri are all from the past three years. But also.. over the past several years I've grown to regard all new features as "god, _of course_ computers should be able to do that". So from my point of view iOS is neither "feature-complete" nor even "good enough". I'm annoyed that the future is coming much more slowly than it should, but I'm still thankful to Apple that it's coming. One tiny example: "Lift object from background" seems like a gimmick, but in my head it's more like a completely natural feature that we just didn't have for whatever reason. For me, images are very naturally composed of _things_. All those standalone features like "face recognition", "dog breed recognition", "plant recognition", "lift object from background", "search by location" should just be one feature: the phone should see photos as collections of things in space, and it should know what those things are, because I know what those things are. Eh. One day we'll get there.
  - tootie 4y ago
    Proof is in the pudding. They have like a 40% profit margin. They are not just keeping pace with the cost of innovation. They are charging the absolute maximum the market will allow and squeezing suppliers for every nickel because no one can stop them.
    - saurik 4y ago
      Yeah: it isn't like Apple is spending their money on R&D or operations and they just have some extremely elaborate and overly expensive way of providing value to the customer that someone might value... they are literally just hoarding a ridiculous and almost embarrassingly large amount of cash. They have a money-printer that is being defended with anti-competitive lock-in mechanisms. https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-funds/sectors/sp500-companies-stockpile-1-trillion-cash-investors-want-it/ https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-funds/sectors/sp500-compa... > Apple alone last week reported sitting on $202.5 billion in cash and investments. That's 7.4% of all the S&P 500's cash. And it's up nearly 4% from 2021.
- hammock 4y ago
  Historically mobile phone hardware is a loss leader for the platform products that they afford access to. Just look at cell service providers giving them away for free, or at Amazon Fire Phone.
  - grishka 4y ago
    > Just look at cell service providers giving them away for free In North America which is in a different universe in this regard compared to the rest of the world. Where I'm from, carriers sell SIM cards and that's it. Postpaid plans aren't a thing. You buy your phone separately in an electronics store, for full price. This applies to iPhones as well.
    - hammock 4y ago
      You ignored Amazon fire phone. Another example would be gaming consoles. The console makers definitely take a cut of all the games that are released on their platform
      - rocketbop 4y ago
        There is a difference with games consoles, in that games do not compete with each other in the same way. Someone might buy Zelda by Nintendo, but also buy a third party RPG. Very few people will pay for Apple Music and Spotify at the same time. I also see many people saying that they won't install WhatsApp, and will only use iMessage. As long as Apple competes directly with its own customers the platform will be unfair.
      - grishka 4y ago
        > You ignored Amazon fire phone. Yes, because I have no idea why it is so apparently special. I do know that they sell kindles so cheaply because they hope people would be buying books from them. > Another example would be gaming consoles. Except those are never marketed as general-purpose pocket computer devices like iPhones are. They are appliances. Getting your hands onto an SDK for a gaming console requires being a company, signing an NDA, and probably committing to lots of other conditions.
- neongreen 4y ago
  I'd like Apple to have more money than just covering the R&D, because I believe they can do unrelated cool things with it (VR, Mac improvements, Apple Car, whatever).
slimsag 4y ago
Would you be OK with Chrome blocking all websites that do not use Google as a payment processor, and them taking a 30% cut? They built the platform where websites run, and other platforms exist..
- endisneigh 4y ago
  False equivalency as chrome doesn’t host the websites.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - e3bc54b2 4y ago
    Neither does Apple. Beyond providing initial download the apps run on phones paid for by users and any back end runs on servers paid for by developer.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      Apple hosts the apps binaries and provides the services for reviews and payments. If they don’t like it they can focus on Android, and if iPhone users don’t like apple’s policies they can switch to android or pine phones as well.
      - cudgy 4y ago
        I assume you’d feel the same way if your cellular networks or internet provider started charging fees for all purchases using their networks. How about a refrigerator monopoly charging for food you put in your refrigerator?
        endisneigh 4y ago
        Not really the same. It’s be more like complaining that you have to pay to put your games on the PlayStation store or sell them at Walmart.
kybernetyk 4y ago
that platform is nothing magic. it's just a general purpose computing device for your pocket.
- neongreen 4y ago
  "Just"? A general purpose computing device for your pocket is a kind of a huge achievement.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    Sure. And I have paid quite a huge sum for this thing so I should get to decide how I want to “general purpose use it”.
kaba0 4y ago
A similar example would be a road. Mobile phones are so ingrained in our every day lives, they shouldn’t be that controlled by a single private entity. The same way Facebook and the like shouldn’t be able to unidirectionally control what is and is not publishable on their platforms, because after a certain size these cute little “private company decides who it wants to do service with” rules simply break down. Like, honestly, do you think it is fair that google and apple could potentially display any sort of message to pretty much the whole of society? They are crazy powerful entities to the point where they are a new pillar of power next to the standard Legislature, Executive, Judiciary.
- hammock 4y ago
  Haha yes! And toll roads are very common, people do gripe about them, but they are generally accepted. Plus local businesses, that are connected by the roads to their customers, pay taxes to the municipality which built the roads.

goldcd 4y ago

Yes, this. If I was to switch from Android to Apple, I'd first re-buy the apps I currently own. I wouldn't be rebuying them because Apple had brokered the interaction in some way - I'd just be using the single option I have to get the apps I want onto the phone in my hand. There might be some new smart-phone user out there that buys apps based solely on recommendations from the store, but this is a minority (and maybe an argument for allowing paid promotion of apps, like everywhere else). Stepping back to the point, I'm guessing 99%+ of Telegram users decided to use Telegram for reasons outside of the App Store. Seems ridiculous that Apple has any claim to the income those apps generate. Maybe if US or EU wanted to fix this (without forcing apple to allow 3rd party installs), a solution might be to just get rid of 'free' apps. Say every app costs $1 to install (if kept for 12 months) and 10c a year to provide updates - and then it's up to the app dev to cover the costs to Apple if they want it to be "free" to the user.

dvngnt_ 4y ago
that's a much worse idea especially for hobby or open source applications

tootie 4y ago

They own the app store. The don't allow competing stores or side loading. They own the app certification and charge a fee for it. They don't license any software or permit VMs. They broke Flash and keep their browser a generation behind so anyone trying to deliver a good user experience needs a native app. They block data collection because it hurts Google. They've been anticompetitive for years and everyone just accepts it. They're as bad or worse than Google or Amazon but coast on their brand halo to get away with it.

kaba0 4y ago

Side note: the app store is literally beyond useless from a discoverability point of view. It will often fail to display an app which are almost perfect matches and may only show it on perfect string equality.. was that shit made by some junior in a naive way? Oh and on the front page you get like the exact same selection of apps on the thousandth “our productivity picks” list.. I think they could probably significantly increase their app store revenue not by increasing the price, but by actually showing the users apps they would actually want to download..

cudgy 4y ago
This is a valid criticism. The app store provides little, if any, advertising or even ease of discoverability for 99.9% of apps on its app store. Charging 30% or any percentage of sales for that matter within apps when Apple provides little marketing value beyond producing the device and a simple catalog of apps is excessive.