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Buddhism and Christianity make it sound like you have to be perfectly clean and disciplined to be “enlightened”, causing feeling of guilt and failure when you s

Buddhism and Christianity make it sound like you have to be perfectly clean and disciplined to be “enlightened”, causing feeling of guilt and failure when you stray from the behavioral/moral prescription. Indians like Siddarameshwar and Nisargadatta were addicted to tobacco. Nisargadatta (who claims he was in the “highest state” and I have no reason to doubt it) died of throat cancer due to hardcore smoking of cloves. When pressed about his addiction he would say “When I showed up in this body I found it with certain habits and didn’t see any reason to interfere.”

zozbot234 4y ago
> feeling of guilt and failure when you stray from the behavioral/moral prescription. Those feelings are caused by attachment and craving. Learn to let go of your attachments; that's a big part of the "discipline" that's conducive to spiritual practice.
- labrador 4y ago
  I agree with this. We are always going to have to deal with our cravings. I find The Seven Deadly Sins to be a useful model of what to try to avoid.
- ewzimm 4y ago
  This is specifically mentioned in Buddhism as one of the ten hindrances, "sīlabbata-parāmāso," attachment to rules and rituals. In Christianity, this is similar to the idea of works-righteousness which was the basis of Martin Luther's Protestant Reformation. In either case, spiritual practice would be meaningless without passing through the messiness of life and learning from mistakes rather than dwelling on them.
labrador 4y ago
Prayer, meditation and therapies like CBT certainly help prevent relapse, but hard core alcoholism requires medical intervention to manage the shakes and delirium tremens (the best and most vivid hallucinations I have had. Better than plant hallucinogens.) The very definition of the disorder is a total loss of control. It's a very scary feeling to know you're going over the falls and there's no way to the safety of shore. The medical community long ago classified addiction as a disease (substance abuse disorder) I used to read Nisargadatta to try and get sober, but it didn't help. He seems to imply there's some deeper level of consciousness beyond just resting without thought or emotion in the present moment. I found the teachings of Zen to much more helpful and in fact many Western therapies like DBT and Wise Mind are based on those principles.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  > I used to read Nisargadatta to try and get sober, but it didn't help. Reading is just another kind of attachment. You have to practice, even and perhaps especially when it seems challenging and difficult. Most spiritual traditions are very clear on this, including yoga itself.
  - yezr 4y ago
    this! all of my favorite zen teachings describe it as 'your practice'. Zen Mind Beginners Mind says something like "in the mind of the expert there is only one path, in the beginner's mind there are many" and urges the zen practitioner to always keep the beginner's mind... It emphasized to me that it should be _your_ practice of the teachings, not just inhaling more and more teachings
  - shrimpx 4y ago
    Although reading and mulling over it, trying to understand what it means within yourself, is a form of practice. It’s a kind of Jnana yoga.
- shrimpx 4y ago
  > He seems to imply there's some deeper level of consciousness beyond just resting without thought or emotion in the present moment. I’ve come to realize that all paths lead to the same state, including Christianity. Christian worship is a form of Bhakti. It’s all a matter of what fits your personality.
AS37 4y ago
> Buddhism and Christianity make it sound like you have to be perfectly clean and disciplined to be “enlightened”, causing feeling of guilt and failure when you stray from the behavioral/moral prescription. I don't really get why this is. I'm not saying it's wrong. But it's only a couple pages into the Bible that you find Noah getting drunk and blacking out naked (Genesis 9). And this is someone who is trusted to hear the voice of God, know the future, and save humanity. Seems to be a pretty low bar for being 'good enough' for God.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- crabmusket 4y ago
  Christianity in practise does not strictly correspond to "what's in the Bible", and I say that as a Christian. Maybe sometimes for the better, but often for the worse. And that's before we even talk about how to interpret something like Genesis 9. I'd say that mainstream and powerful Christianities do have the effect the parent commenter noticed, especially in America. And to me, it's quite plain that that is a perversion of the message of grace that is central to the Gospel.
  - alexvoda 4y ago
    Lack of coherence is a major benefit for a sacred text. It allows the cult clerics to be flexible, to pick and choose what they like, what is socially acceptable at the time. A rigid sacred text that claim things are one way or that something must be done someway will inevitably fail when reality shows that things are some other way or that the results of some other action are better.
    - mistermann 4y ago
      Sounds a lot like "Democracy, our most sacred institution". Defend it blindly, with your "good faith" "critical thinking".
      - 4y ago
hanoz 4y ago
* >Buddhism and Christianity make it sound like you have to be perfectly clean and disciplined to be “enlightened”* I'm my no means a scholar of such matters but I don't get than impression of Christianity at all. From the concept of original sin, to the tale of Jesus kicking off in the temple, the embracement of man's flaws seem to me to be one of Christianity's biggest selling points.
mellavora 4y ago
> Christianity make it sound like you have to be perfectly clean and disciplined to be “enlightened” Yes, it is true that the church often presents it this way. Which is odd, because the bible is almost always presenting the other case, that the person with the issue is the enlightened one. For example, the bible lists 5 women who are in the geneology of Jesus. This includes a prostitute (Rahab), a Moabite (Ruth, and according to the bible marrying a moabite was punishable by death), and an adulteress (Bathsheba; she may have been innocent but this isn't clear). Heck, even the idea of extending the blessing of God to the gentiles is sus. The gentiles are by definition unclean. All of which could be seen as a way to highlight that "enlightenment" is due to the grace of god, not works of man. And yes, "enlightenment" means something very different in christianity vs buddhism.

zozbot234 4y ago

> feeling of guilt and failure when you stray from the behavioral/moral prescription. Those feelings are caused by attachment and craving. Learn to let go of your attachments; that's a big part of the "discipline" that's conducive to spiritual practice.

labrador 4y ago
I agree with this. We are always going to have to deal with our cravings. I find The Seven Deadly Sins to be a useful model of what to try to avoid.
ewzimm 4y ago
This is specifically mentioned in Buddhism as one of the ten hindrances, "sīlabbata-parāmāso," attachment to rules and rituals. In Christianity, this is similar to the idea of works-righteousness which was the basis of Martin Luther's Protestant Reformation. In either case, spiritual practice would be meaningless without passing through the messiness of life and learning from mistakes rather than dwelling on them.

labrador 4y ago

Prayer, meditation and therapies like CBT certainly help prevent relapse, but hard core alcoholism requires medical intervention to manage the shakes and delirium tremens (the best and most vivid hallucinations I have had. Better than plant hallucinogens.) The very definition of the disorder is a total loss of control. It's a very scary feeling to know you're going over the falls and there's no way to the safety of shore. The medical community long ago classified addiction as a disease (substance abuse disorder) I used to read Nisargadatta to try and get sober, but it didn't help. He seems to imply there's some deeper level of consciousness beyond just resting without thought or emotion in the present moment. I found the teachings of Zen to much more helpful and in fact many Western therapies like DBT and Wise Mind are based on those principles.

zozbot234 4y ago
> I used to read Nisargadatta to try and get sober, but it didn't help. Reading is just another kind of attachment. You have to practice, even and perhaps especially when it seems challenging and difficult. Most spiritual traditions are very clear on this, including yoga itself.
- yezr 4y ago
  this! all of my favorite zen teachings describe it as 'your practice'. Zen Mind Beginners Mind says something like "in the mind of the expert there is only one path, in the beginner's mind there are many" and urges the zen practitioner to always keep the beginner's mind... It emphasized to me that it should be _your_ practice of the teachings, not just inhaling more and more teachings
- shrimpx 4y ago
  Although reading and mulling over it, trying to understand what it means within yourself, is a form of practice. It’s a kind of Jnana yoga.
shrimpx 4y ago
> He seems to imply there's some deeper level of consciousness beyond just resting without thought or emotion in the present moment. I’ve come to realize that all paths lead to the same state, including Christianity. Christian worship is a form of Bhakti. It’s all a matter of what fits your personality.

AS37 4y ago

> Buddhism and Christianity make it sound like you have to be perfectly clean and disciplined to be “enlightened”, causing feeling of guilt and failure when you stray from the behavioral/moral prescription. I don't really get why this is. I'm not saying it's wrong. But it's only a couple pages into the Bible that you find Noah getting drunk and blacking out naked (Genesis 9). And this is someone who is trusted to hear the voice of God, know the future, and save humanity. Seems to be a pretty low bar for being 'good enough' for God.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
crabmusket 4y ago
Christianity in practise does not strictly correspond to "what's in the Bible", and I say that as a Christian. Maybe sometimes for the better, but often for the worse. And that's before we even talk about how to interpret something like Genesis 9. I'd say that mainstream and powerful Christianities do have the effect the parent commenter noticed, especially in America. And to me, it's quite plain that that is a perversion of the message of grace that is central to the Gospel.
- alexvoda 4y ago
  Lack of coherence is a major benefit for a sacred text. It allows the cult clerics to be flexible, to pick and choose what they like, what is socially acceptable at the time. A rigid sacred text that claim things are one way or that something must be done someway will inevitably fail when reality shows that things are some other way or that the results of some other action are better.
  - mistermann 4y ago
    Sounds a lot like "Democracy, our most sacred institution". Defend it blindly, with your "good faith" "critical thinking".
    - 4y ago

hanoz 4y ago

* >Buddhism and Christianity make it sound like you have to be perfectly clean and disciplined to be “enlightened”* I'm my no means a scholar of such matters but I don't get than impression of Christianity at all. From the concept of original sin, to the tale of Jesus kicking off in the temple, the embracement of man's flaws seem to me to be one of Christianity's biggest selling points.

mellavora 4y ago

> Christianity make it sound like you have to be perfectly clean and disciplined to be “enlightened” Yes, it is true that the church often presents it this way. Which is odd, because the bible is almost always presenting the other case, that the person with the issue is the enlightened one. For example, the bible lists 5 women who are in the geneology of Jesus. This includes a prostitute (Rahab), a Moabite (Ruth, and according to the bible marrying a moabite was punishable by death), and an adulteress (Bathsheba; she may have been innocent but this isn't clear). Heck, even the idea of extending the blessing of God to the gentiles is sus. The gentiles are by definition unclean. All of which could be seen as a way to highlight that "enlightenment" is due to the grace of god, not works of man. And yes, "enlightenment" means something very different in christianity vs buddhism.