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This is probably not the right reaction (and may well be unpopular), but it makes me angry. I know no one is trying to kill anyone, but it feels like people dis

This is probably not the right reaction (and may well be unpopular), but it makes me angry. I know no one is trying to kill anyone, but it feels like people disregarding others' safety just to get a little bit closer to some amusement. Ideally people would just relax and accept that there isn't room for them nearer the stage/etc. > everyone turn around, people are being killed I wonder if this would worsen the danger as people push to get away from the crush while others are still pushing from the back (as they haven't been made aware of the situation). But the fact that people are in the back pushing in the first place still sickens me.

scaramanga 4y ago
These events tend to happen because people are escaping a crush in both directions. I'm sure everyone in the crowd was aware that it was getting dangerous. And everyone just tried to get out and encountered other people facing the same issue, coming the other way. The cause is lack of proper crowd management because if you view the cause as just "humans are fundamentally flawed", then you are basically just accepting the deaths because we're not going to fix humans... In other words, just think it through? Nobody is endangering their own life to get closer to an amusement. Well, maybe in some other sense, like standing closer to a dangerous firework before it goes off or something. But not in the sense of being extremely uncomfortable and feeling rising panic, and then moving forward towards to get some more uncomfortable panic feeling because, welp, gotta get to the bar. Packed crowds are extremely distressing long before you get asphyxiated in them.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  I'm arguing that it's selfish to push people, and this argument doesn't imply that I'm opposed to proper crowd control. I also think people shouldn't drive dangerously, but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to traffic control measures or mechanisms. > In other words, just think it through? Nobody is endangering their own life to get closer to an amusement. I didn't claim people were endangering their own lives to get closer to an amusement (although that's probably true as well in some sense), I claimed that they are disregarding others' safety, which is actually probably too weak a phrasing since it suggests passivity rather than the fact of the matter: people who push (even gently) to get closer to some stage/etc actively and lethally endanger others for the sole purpose of being closer to an amusement.
  - scaramanga 4y ago
    All of which is false. Nobody is in control when the crowd density reaches that point. Nobody has a choice in where they go or who they push. The crowd reached that density due to lack of crowd control. You are either ignorant, or victim blaming. Go read wikipedia about crowd collapse.
  - scaramanga 4y ago
    > people who push (even gently) to get closer to some stage/etc actively and lethally endanger others for the sole purpose of being closer to an amusement. Completely false. The reason people don't die at a concert is because the organisers control the crowd density. The density is high, but not so high that death is all but inevitable (as was the density in Itaewon on saturday, which can be confirmed from photographic evidence of the scene). They have crowd barriers and security staff and it's well lit, so they can see if anyone is struggling and help them over. Even if the crowd density is relatively safe, localised disturbance (eg. someone tripping over, losing a shoe) etc can cause a dangerous situation. So even when the density is at a level considered "risky but safe", you need vigilant security staff and a space to overflow people to (space created by crowd barriers.) If the density is too high, or the measures to protect people are insufficient. It is the fault of the organisers, and that is manslaughter. This is just called "risk management", you tolerate some level of risk, so that people can do the activities that they enjoy, while allowing them to have the reasonable expectation that they won't die.
londons_explore 4y ago
You imagine people pushing others hard. But the reality is crushing can also be caused by thousands of people pushing gently. For example if there is a line of 1000 people, with person to person contact, and there is something nice in one direction (eg. The exit to a concert), or nasty in the other direction (encroaching fire or flood), then merely pushing with 1 lb of force means by the end of the line you have 1000 lbs of force, which would crush anyone. The effect is made worse in 2 dimensions because of converging field lines having a force amplification effect.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  No, I'm not imagining people pushing others hard. Everyone has a choice: 1. passively propagate forward whatever force is being applied to them from behind 2. actively resist by applying some amount of counterforce (this doesn't mean the person in front of them experiences 0 force, but only that the force they experience is less) 3. actively add one's own force in addition to whatever force they are experiencing from behind I'm positing that (3) is selfish even at low forces, even if you're near the back of the line, and your scenario of 1k people doing (3) with an individual contribution of 1lb of force describes 1k wrecklessly selfish people. The moral I'm proposing--and it's a really fucking easy one--is don't fucking push people, even gently.

scaramanga 4y ago

These events tend to happen because people are escaping a crush in both directions. I'm sure everyone in the crowd was aware that it was getting dangerous. And everyone just tried to get out and encountered other people facing the same issue, coming the other way. The cause is lack of proper crowd management because if you view the cause as just "humans are fundamentally flawed", then you are basically just accepting the deaths because we're not going to fix humans... In other words, just think it through? Nobody is endangering their own life to get closer to an amusement. Well, maybe in some other sense, like standing closer to a dangerous firework before it goes off or something. But not in the sense of being extremely uncomfortable and feeling rising panic, and then moving forward towards to get some more uncomfortable panic feeling because, welp, gotta get to the bar. Packed crowds are extremely distressing long before you get asphyxiated in them.

throwaway894345 4y ago
I'm arguing that it's selfish to push people, and this argument doesn't imply that I'm opposed to proper crowd control. I also think people shouldn't drive dangerously, but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to traffic control measures or mechanisms. > In other words, just think it through? Nobody is endangering their own life to get closer to an amusement. I didn't claim people were endangering their own lives to get closer to an amusement (although that's probably true as well in some sense), I claimed that they are disregarding others' safety, which is actually probably too weak a phrasing since it suggests passivity rather than the fact of the matter: people who push (even gently) to get closer to some stage/etc actively and lethally endanger others for the sole purpose of being closer to an amusement.
- scaramanga 4y ago
  All of which is false. Nobody is in control when the crowd density reaches that point. Nobody has a choice in where they go or who they push. The crowd reached that density due to lack of crowd control. You are either ignorant, or victim blaming. Go read wikipedia about crowd collapse.
- scaramanga 4y ago
  > people who push (even gently) to get closer to some stage/etc actively and lethally endanger others for the sole purpose of being closer to an amusement. Completely false. The reason people don't die at a concert is because the organisers control the crowd density. The density is high, but not so high that death is all but inevitable (as was the density in Itaewon on saturday, which can be confirmed from photographic evidence of the scene). They have crowd barriers and security staff and it's well lit, so they can see if anyone is struggling and help them over. Even if the crowd density is relatively safe, localised disturbance (eg. someone tripping over, losing a shoe) etc can cause a dangerous situation. So even when the density is at a level considered "risky but safe", you need vigilant security staff and a space to overflow people to (space created by crowd barriers.) If the density is too high, or the measures to protect people are insufficient. It is the fault of the organisers, and that is manslaughter. This is just called "risk management", you tolerate some level of risk, so that people can do the activities that they enjoy, while allowing them to have the reasonable expectation that they won't die.

londons_explore 4y ago

You imagine people pushing others hard. But the reality is crushing can also be caused by thousands of people pushing gently. For example if there is a line of 1000 people, with person to person contact, and there is something nice in one direction (eg. The exit to a concert), or nasty in the other direction (encroaching fire or flood), then merely pushing with 1 lb of force means by the end of the line you have 1000 lbs of force, which would crush anyone. The effect is made worse in 2 dimensions because of converging field lines having a force amplification effect.

throwaway894345 4y ago
No, I'm not imagining people pushing others hard. Everyone has a choice: 1. passively propagate forward whatever force is being applied to them from behind 2. actively resist by applying some amount of counterforce (this doesn't mean the person in front of them experiences 0 force, but only that the force they experience is less) 3. actively add one's own force in addition to whatever force they are experiencing from behind I'm positing that (3) is selfish even at low forces, even if you're near the back of the line, and your scenario of 1k people doing (3) with an individual contribution of 1lb of force describes 1k wrecklessly selfish people. The moral I'm proposing--and it's a really fucking easy one--is don't fucking push people, even gently.