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Crushes like this are especially hearbreaking because they are the result of people at the back of the crowd not knowing those at the front are being asphyxiate

Crushes like this are especially hearbreaking because they are the result of people at the back of the crowd not knowing those at the front are being asphyxiated. We should teach more about this phenomenon in schools and have a universally understood protocol so crowds can alert themselves to a crush. We could have a code-word or gesture that can be spread quickly person to person and is understood to mean "everyone turn around, people are being killed." Combined with better overall awareness of situations that lead to crushes, it should be within our capabilities to collectively prevent these tragedies.

Mountain_Skies 4y ago
In a monocultural society like South Korea, it's a good idea that probably could work very well and would have saved lives. I'm afraid here in the west it would quickly be abused by morons wanting to amuse themselves at gatherings and quickly be ignored, making it useless.
- Nullabillity 4y ago
  Right, that's why people keep pulling fire alarms for funsies too. Oh, wait...
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not. People definitely do keep pulling fire alarms "for funsies", and that's probably a lot easier to prosecute than "who falsely initiated the 'crowd crush' protocol".
    - null0pointer 4y ago
      It definitely reads as sarcasm to me. It’s easier to prosecute a false fire alarm than a false crowd-crush signal but the cost of a false fire alarm is also far greater. In a false fire alarm you have the emergency services responding, possibly pulling them away from real emergencies, possibly fire suppression systems engaged adding property damage and cleanup, and everyone evacuating the premises wasting peoples time. For a crowd-crush protocol I’m imagining something like this. If you see someone being crushed or fallen down and trampled you raise your hand. Possibly with some hand signal like a fist with an extended pinkie finger to disambiguate other reasons to raise a hand (like dancing at a concert for example). If you see someone giving the crowd-crush signal you also give the crowd-crush signal, this way it propagates throughout the crowd. In addition to giving the signal you will also stop moving and stand in place until the issue has resolved. At most a protocol like this would waste a few minutes of peoples time in a false positive.
      - popcalc 4y ago
        Never attended a public high school in America?
        null0pointer 4y ago
        Nope.
- yongjik 4y ago
  There were videos of people drinking and dancing right next to a dozen flashing ambulances. I don't think that kind of protocol would work, even in Korea. (Also most people grossly underestimate this kind of danger - by the time someone in the center realizes they're in trouble, it would be too late.)
  - scaramanga 4y ago
    For all they knew, 3 people had alcohol poisoning and 5 more had cuts and bruises from a fight or whatever. I doubt any animal of any species, if they were aware of their own kind being killed in large numbers nearby, would not shut up and pay close attention for the sake of their own safety if nothing else...
- scaramanga 4y ago
  I can assure you that crowds in Itaewon are not not monocultural (although on Halloween it is a bit, because it's one of the rare occasions Koreans will go there in large numbers). I can also confirm that South Korea does indeed, have plenty of morons. But perhaps I'm missing the point and this is the sub-thread for racist tropes/talking points. Why can't all minorities be more like Asians?
  - SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
    Parent comment is an internet classic, when there's only a surface level, stereotypical understanding of a foreign culture, and the assumption that's all there is to it. Bonus points when the perceived population homogeneity is used as a reason why universal healthcare works "over there" but couldn't possibly work here. It's ignorant and racist as soon as it's given even a cursory examination.
    - scaramanga 4y ago
      Yes, just the other day I was reading such an internet classic about how east asia is a model of community mental healthcare. Korea leads the OECD in suicide rates and mental health is deeply stigmatized. If we can get through the political backlash of this event without a high profile public figure committing suicide (to avoid responsibility) it will be a miracle ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It's literally how our previous mayor went out, and he didn't even manslaughter 153 people.
throwaway894345 4y ago
This is probably not the right reaction (and may well be unpopular), but it makes me angry. I know no one is trying to kill anyone, but it feels like people disregarding others' safety just to get a little bit closer to some amusement. Ideally people would just relax and accept that there isn't room for them nearer the stage/etc. > everyone turn around, people are being killed I wonder if this would worsen the danger as people push to get away from the crush while others are still pushing from the back (as they haven't been made aware of the situation). But the fact that people are in the back pushing in the first place still sickens me.
- scaramanga 4y ago
  These events tend to happen because people are escaping a crush in both directions. I'm sure everyone in the crowd was aware that it was getting dangerous. And everyone just tried to get out and encountered other people facing the same issue, coming the other way. The cause is lack of proper crowd management because if you view the cause as just "humans are fundamentally flawed", then you are basically just accepting the deaths because we're not going to fix humans... In other words, just think it through? Nobody is endangering their own life to get closer to an amusement. Well, maybe in some other sense, like standing closer to a dangerous firework before it goes off or something. But not in the sense of being extremely uncomfortable and feeling rising panic, and then moving forward towards to get some more uncomfortable panic feeling because, welp, gotta get to the bar. Packed crowds are extremely distressing long before you get asphyxiated in them.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    I'm arguing that it's selfish to push people, and this argument doesn't imply that I'm opposed to proper crowd control. I also think people shouldn't drive dangerously, but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to traffic control measures or mechanisms. > In other words, just think it through? Nobody is endangering their own life to get closer to an amusement. I didn't claim people were endangering their own lives to get closer to an amusement (although that's probably true as well in some sense), I claimed that they are disregarding others' safety, which is actually probably too weak a phrasing since it suggests passivity rather than the fact of the matter: people who push (even gently) to get closer to some stage/etc actively and lethally endanger others for the sole purpose of being closer to an amusement.
scaramanga 4y ago
Yes, very early on people were speculating about drugs, gas leaks, and such. I don't think that is malicious but mostly a lack of understanding about how dangerous crowds can be and what compression asphyxiation is. The drugs could be squarely ruled out even as the very first reports came out. Even in the most hedonistic parties, you couldn't get 50 people to take timed doses of the same substance and have them stay together in the very same location until poisoning set in for a group of people of vastly different body weights at the same time... But if you're talking about a collective response, how about you know... regulating and managing large dangerous crowds like this (I was there last year and it was unsafe then, too...). Or regulating the nightclubs (which are all diabolical death traps, too). They should be blocking off the entire itaewon-ro from noksapyeong to the hooker hill and keeping track of the people entering and leaving and have a protocol for getting first responders in. A nightclub fire would have been equally or even more deadly, the toll could have been in the high hundreds in that event..
sjadoinqwoeihad 4y ago
Yes 100%. This reminds me of bees or fireflies. They have algorithms that individuals follow which can cause the collective to behave in a certain way. We should definitely create something like that. You can't rely on spoken signals, mainly because of other noise and broken phone effect. Something like raising your hands and crossing them could work. People who are close to the crush will quickly agree and raise their hands, so it's unlikely that one troll could make a false alarm since you would need maybe ~30 or so people to get the signal started. This signal could propagate through a huge crowd in just a minute or two. Initially I thought about drones with arrows and loudspeakers but it seems a bit too niche of a usecase to have a swarm of drones for. Also doesn't quite work in all conditions. I had a lot of mini crush experiences in primary school. Students holding doors for fun and everyone trying to push through. People jumping on top of each other and making human piles. I think these are all good experiences to understand how crowds work, even at small scales. I think schools could teach this kind of protocol and practice it. It's also important that this doesn't cause a mass panic and a stampede so drills are necessary.

Mountain_Skies 4y ago

In a monocultural society like South Korea, it's a good idea that probably could work very well and would have saved lives. I'm afraid here in the west it would quickly be abused by morons wanting to amuse themselves at gatherings and quickly be ignored, making it useless.

Nullabillity 4y ago
Right, that's why people keep pulling fire alarms for funsies too. Oh, wait...
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not. People definitely do keep pulling fire alarms "for funsies", and that's probably a lot easier to prosecute than "who falsely initiated the 'crowd crush' protocol".
  - null0pointer 4y ago
    It definitely reads as sarcasm to me. It’s easier to prosecute a false fire alarm than a false crowd-crush signal but the cost of a false fire alarm is also far greater. In a false fire alarm you have the emergency services responding, possibly pulling them away from real emergencies, possibly fire suppression systems engaged adding property damage and cleanup, and everyone evacuating the premises wasting peoples time. For a crowd-crush protocol I’m imagining something like this. If you see someone being crushed or fallen down and trampled you raise your hand. Possibly with some hand signal like a fist with an extended pinkie finger to disambiguate other reasons to raise a hand (like dancing at a concert for example). If you see someone giving the crowd-crush signal you also give the crowd-crush signal, this way it propagates throughout the crowd. In addition to giving the signal you will also stop moving and stand in place until the issue has resolved. At most a protocol like this would waste a few minutes of peoples time in a false positive.
    - popcalc 4y ago
      Never attended a public high school in America?
      - null0pointer 4y ago
        Nope.
yongjik 4y ago
There were videos of people drinking and dancing right next to a dozen flashing ambulances. I don't think that kind of protocol would work, even in Korea. (Also most people grossly underestimate this kind of danger - by the time someone in the center realizes they're in trouble, it would be too late.)
- scaramanga 4y ago
  For all they knew, 3 people had alcohol poisoning and 5 more had cuts and bruises from a fight or whatever. I doubt any animal of any species, if they were aware of their own kind being killed in large numbers nearby, would not shut up and pay close attention for the sake of their own safety if nothing else...
scaramanga 4y ago
I can assure you that crowds in Itaewon are not not monocultural (although on Halloween it is a bit, because it's one of the rare occasions Koreans will go there in large numbers). I can also confirm that South Korea does indeed, have plenty of morons. But perhaps I'm missing the point and this is the sub-thread for racist tropes/talking points. Why can't all minorities be more like Asians?
- SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
  Parent comment is an internet classic, when there's only a surface level, stereotypical understanding of a foreign culture, and the assumption that's all there is to it. Bonus points when the perceived population homogeneity is used as a reason why universal healthcare works "over there" but couldn't possibly work here. It's ignorant and racist as soon as it's given even a cursory examination.
  - scaramanga 4y ago
    Yes, just the other day I was reading such an internet classic about how east asia is a model of community mental healthcare. Korea leads the OECD in suicide rates and mental health is deeply stigmatized. If we can get through the political backlash of this event without a high profile public figure committing suicide (to avoid responsibility) it will be a miracle ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It's literally how our previous mayor went out, and he didn't even manslaughter 153 people.

throwaway894345 4y ago

This is probably not the right reaction (and may well be unpopular), but it makes me angry. I know no one is trying to kill anyone, but it feels like people disregarding others' safety just to get a little bit closer to some amusement. Ideally people would just relax and accept that there isn't room for them nearer the stage/etc. > everyone turn around, people are being killed I wonder if this would worsen the danger as people push to get away from the crush while others are still pushing from the back (as they haven't been made aware of the situation). But the fact that people are in the back pushing in the first place still sickens me.

scaramanga 4y ago
These events tend to happen because people are escaping a crush in both directions. I'm sure everyone in the crowd was aware that it was getting dangerous. And everyone just tried to get out and encountered other people facing the same issue, coming the other way. The cause is lack of proper crowd management because if you view the cause as just "humans are fundamentally flawed", then you are basically just accepting the deaths because we're not going to fix humans... In other words, just think it through? Nobody is endangering their own life to get closer to an amusement. Well, maybe in some other sense, like standing closer to a dangerous firework before it goes off or something. But not in the sense of being extremely uncomfortable and feeling rising panic, and then moving forward towards to get some more uncomfortable panic feeling because, welp, gotta get to the bar. Packed crowds are extremely distressing long before you get asphyxiated in them.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  I'm arguing that it's selfish to push people, and this argument doesn't imply that I'm opposed to proper crowd control. I also think people shouldn't drive dangerously, but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to traffic control measures or mechanisms. > In other words, just think it through? Nobody is endangering their own life to get closer to an amusement. I didn't claim people were endangering their own lives to get closer to an amusement (although that's probably true as well in some sense), I claimed that they are disregarding others' safety, which is actually probably too weak a phrasing since it suggests passivity rather than the fact of the matter: people who push (even gently) to get closer to some stage/etc actively and lethally endanger others for the sole purpose of being closer to an amusement.

scaramanga 4y ago

Yes, very early on people were speculating about drugs, gas leaks, and such. I don't think that is malicious but mostly a lack of understanding about how dangerous crowds can be and what compression asphyxiation is. The drugs could be squarely ruled out even as the very first reports came out. Even in the most hedonistic parties, you couldn't get 50 people to take timed doses of the same substance and have them stay together in the very same location until poisoning set in for a group of people of vastly different body weights at the same time... But if you're talking about a collective response, how about you know... regulating and managing large dangerous crowds like this (I was there last year and it was unsafe then, too...). Or regulating the nightclubs (which are all diabolical death traps, too). They should be blocking off the entire itaewon-ro from noksapyeong to the hooker hill and keeping track of the people entering and leaving and have a protocol for getting first responders in. A nightclub fire would have been equally or even more deadly, the toll could have been in the high hundreds in that event..

sjadoinqwoeihad 4y ago

Yes 100%. This reminds me of bees or fireflies. They have algorithms that individuals follow which can cause the collective to behave in a certain way. We should definitely create something like that. You can't rely on spoken signals, mainly because of other noise and broken phone effect. Something like raising your hands and crossing them could work. People who are close to the crush will quickly agree and raise their hands, so it's unlikely that one troll could make a false alarm since you would need maybe ~30 or so people to get the signal started. This signal could propagate through a huge crowd in just a minute or two. Initially I thought about drones with arrows and loudspeakers but it seems a bit too niche of a usecase to have a swarm of drones for. Also doesn't quite work in all conditions. I had a lot of mini crush experiences in primary school. Students holding doors for fun and everyone trying to push through. People jumping on top of each other and making human piles. I think these are all good experiences to understand how crowds work, even at small scales. I think schools could teach this kind of protocol and practice it. It's also important that this doesn't cause a mass panic and a stampede so drills are necessary.