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* Breadwinning is associated with the male gender role, so men face more social pressures to be breadwinners than women do. (The proportion of men who e.g. stay

by klipt 4y ago

* Breadwinning is associated with the male gender role, so men face more social pressures to be breadwinners than women do. (The proportion of men who e.g. stay at home to parent is much smaller than women, and it's likely fewer women are willing to date a man with that goal, compared to the number of men willing to date a woman with that goal.) * Once IT became a big industry with lots of good paying jobs, it became extremely attractive to breadwinners.

arcanemachiner 4y ago
OK, now rationalize the ratio of men:women who program as a hobby.
- manofmanysmiles 4y ago
  Often hobbies are at least adjacent to careers in my experience.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    That’s why so many programmers paint small science fiction figurines obsessively.
fnordpiglet 4y ago
Then why aren’t single women dominant in tech? You seem to have the assumptions : 1) women are uniformly incentivized against making the most money for their time possible 2) women have children 3) women are married 4) … to men Etc. Given women were very prevalent in tech until about the advent of the home computer maybe the fact home computers were only marketed to and for boys and the computer was installed in the boys room?
- klipt 4y ago
  > women are uniformly incentivized against making the most money for their time possible What makes you assume men and women are working the same amount of time? Labor statistics show that men work more overtime and women are more likely to work part time. Which fits the hypothesis that men are socially judged more by their breadwinning and women are socially judged more by things like having the flexible time to be a good mom. > … to men I'm taking about statistical trends, nobody said all women are married to men, but lesbians are a tiny minority compared to straight women. Even if all lesbians adopted masculine gender roles, that wouldn't change the fact that the majority of women follow female gender roles.
- rexpop 4y ago
  > why aren’t single women dominant in tech? Because single women are equally subject to workplace hostility: men "don't discriminate" when we discriminate.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
rexpop 4y ago
> Breadwinning is associated with the male gender The passive voice is undermining your point, here. Patriarchal ideology associates breadwinning with the male gender and men, fearful in light of the aforementioned social pressures, are uniquely hostile to women who, under patriarchy, our society has agreed to side-line as a class.
- klipt 4y ago
  Then it seems the main enforcers of "patriarchal ideology" are those straight women who prefer to date men who are successful breadwinners over men who aim to be stay at home dads.
  - rexpop 4y ago
    Women aren't obligated to have sex with anyone in particular, and it's extremely worrying how prevalent this opposition to romantic freedom has become in online discourse. It's worthwhile to explore from where these social pressures arrive. Parents, teachers, peers, religious authorities, bosses, and advertising come to mind. I wonder where you'd rank the influence of all these? For reference, don't hesitate to look into bell hooks "The Will to Change;"[0] as feminist texts go, it's extremely sympathetic to men. I think you'll find a lot to agree with, right off the bat. 0. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17601.The_Will_to_Change https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17601.The_Will_to_Change
    - klipt 4y ago
      > Women aren't obligated to have sex with anyone in particular Who said women (or men) are? But who people choose to date is obviously a very strong source of societal pressure. Have you not heard of "sexual selection"? If men refused to date women who wear pants, that would be strong pressure on women to wear dresses instead. If women refuse to date stay at home dads, that's strong pressure on men to be breadwinners instead.
    - ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 4y ago
      > Women aren't obligated to have sex with anyone in particular Of course not, don't be ridiculous. That doesn't change the effect of their preferences, though. And, of course men's preferences also have an effect on women. There's no need to be defensive (or aggressive) here. > Parents, teachers Which gender are those mostly? Who is buying girls Barbie dolls and boys Action Man?

by klipt 4y ago

arcanemachiner 4y ago

OK, now rationalize the ratio of men:women who program as a hobby.

manofmanysmiles 4y ago
Often hobbies are at least adjacent to careers in my experience.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  That’s why so many programmers paint small science fiction figurines obsessively.

fnordpiglet 4y ago

Then why aren’t single women dominant in tech? You seem to have the assumptions : 1) women are uniformly incentivized against making the most money for their time possible 2) women have children 3) women are married 4) … to men Etc. Given women were very prevalent in tech until about the advent of the home computer maybe the fact home computers were only marketed to and for boys and the computer was installed in the boys room?

klipt 4y ago
> women are uniformly incentivized against making the most money for their time possible What makes you assume men and women are working the same amount of time? Labor statistics show that men work more overtime and women are more likely to work part time. Which fits the hypothesis that men are socially judged more by their breadwinning and women are socially judged more by things like having the flexible time to be a good mom. > … to men I'm taking about statistical trends, nobody said all women are married to men, but lesbians are a tiny minority compared to straight women. Even if all lesbians adopted masculine gender roles, that wouldn't change the fact that the majority of women follow female gender roles.
rexpop 4y ago
> why aren’t single women dominant in tech? Because single women are equally subject to workplace hostility: men "don't discriminate" when we discriminate.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

rexpop 4y ago

> Breadwinning is associated with the male gender The passive voice is undermining your point, here. Patriarchal ideology associates breadwinning with the male gender and men, fearful in light of the aforementioned social pressures, are uniquely hostile to women who, under patriarchy, our society has agreed to side-line as a class.

klipt 4y ago
Then it seems the main enforcers of "patriarchal ideology" are those straight women who prefer to date men who are successful breadwinners over men who aim to be stay at home dads.
- rexpop 4y ago
  Women aren't obligated to have sex with anyone in particular, and it's extremely worrying how prevalent this opposition to romantic freedom has become in online discourse. It's worthwhile to explore from where these social pressures arrive. Parents, teachers, peers, religious authorities, bosses, and advertising come to mind. I wonder where you'd rank the influence of all these? For reference, don't hesitate to look into bell hooks "The Will to Change;"[0] as feminist texts go, it's extremely sympathetic to men. I think you'll find a lot to agree with, right off the bat. 0. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17601.The_Will_to_Change https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17601.The_Will_to_Change
  - klipt 4y ago
    > Women aren't obligated to have sex with anyone in particular Who said women (or men) are? But who people choose to date is obviously a very strong source of societal pressure. Have you not heard of "sexual selection"? If men refused to date women who wear pants, that would be strong pressure on women to wear dresses instead. If women refuse to date stay at home dads, that's strong pressure on men to be breadwinners instead.
  - ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 4y ago
    > Women aren't obligated to have sex with anyone in particular Of course not, don't be ridiculous. That doesn't change the effect of their preferences, though. And, of course men's preferences also have an effect on women. There's no need to be defensive (or aggressive) here. > Parents, teachers Which gender are those mostly? Who is buying girls Barbie dolls and boys Action Man?