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> This one is going to be controversial, but as much as I despise misogyny, the motivational videos which I watched out of curiosity of Andrew Tate are quite po

> This one is going to be controversial, but as much as I despise misogyny, the motivational videos which I watched out of curiosity of Andrew Tate are quite powerful. I've found Jordan Peterson to offer similar, minus the brainless misogyny. However when I talk about Peterson to a valued friend, there is a sense of distaste. But I can't pretend to not find what he talks about really interesting. I think he offers good advice to young men (and indeed women), however I think his advice particularly resonates with young men, as he doesn't subscribe to the view that they are by default part of a toxic patriarchy.

dijit 4y ago
The issue with Peterson is that anything outside of socioeconomics and psychology are drivel. He has two tendencies which make him frustrating: first, he will state a statistic and follow up with an opinion, and when challenged he will reply that it’s not his views it is simply statistics. This can be very disingenuous, as you can infer many things from the same statistic. The second, and much more egregious crime, is that he’s a climate change denier and proposes appeasement towards Russia. His life advice is very good, and he talks about many interesting societal things, but when I see videos of him claiming himself to be a prophet: I am left with a sour taste.
- heurisko 4y ago
  > first, he will state a statistic and follow up with an opinion, and when challenged he will reply that it’s not his views it is simply statistics. I think you will have to give an example. > The second, and much more egregious crime, is that he’s a climate change denier and proposes appeasement towards Russia. Those are opinions, not crimes. And I don't believe he denies climate change, but rather many of the proposals designed to combat it are causing more harm than good, e.g. Germany unilaterally deciding to decarbonise whilst relying on Russian gas.
  - dijit 4y ago
    He said on Joe Rogan that the problem was that “climate means everything and you can’t model everything” - which is not an opinion, it’s just false: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/27/word-salad-of-nonsense-scientists-denounce-jordan-petersons-comments-on-climate-models https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/27/word-sal... Here’s his comments about appeasement (taken from his 51 minute documentary about it): https://youtube.com/shorts/cj2axyfmcoE?feature=share https://youtube.com/shorts/cj2axyfmcoE?feature=share The proceeding examples are crimes because they are untruths that will cost human lives. —- In this video he uses the technique: https://youtu.be/Qnzd5w2FSr4 https://youtu.be/Qnzd5w2FSr4 And as he says about Elliot Page: “this person is a role model and will be emulated, they have a responsibility” this applies to Peterson himself.
- noxer 4y ago
  > The second, and much more egregious crime, is that he’s a climate change denier.... He does not deny climate change, he rejects climate change catastrophe fear driven measurements of questionable efficacy with known unquestionable negative side effect for many many people. AKA things like the west moving their emissions to poor counties in order to "green" their economy. Or things like raising energy cost in an attempt to incentivizes people to use less energy. The problem here is that this affects the poor people proportionally more. It may reduce emission from the "rich" a tiny bit but it pushes million of people globally into poverty. Ofc anyone is entitled to disagree with him. Many do in fact think the end justifies the means. Many people think it is totally acceptable that some people wont make it but "saving the planet" has the higher priority else we are all not gonna make it. Unsurprisingly Peterson as a psychologist has the focus (or bias if you want) on the individual therefore it would be morally wrong to push someone into poverty today to solve a problem of the future. Again anyone can disagree with him on that but calling him climate change denier isn't disagreeing its just slander to avoid the complex moral problems around the topic.
davidguetta 4y ago
Yes Jordan Perterson is known to have a similar 'effect' (in a more "moderate" way i'd say).
modriano 4y ago
Jordan Peterson is a mixed bag; a little good, but a lot of bad. The good: Some of the rules from his "12 rules" are legitimately good advice that I wish I had embraced sooner in my life. * "Treat yourself like you are someone you are responsible for helping." (this is just good advice) * "Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone else is today." (mixed bag on this; a shoulder chip was a great motivator and learning that I'm not an imposter and never was has made me healthier but it's harder to motivate myself on work I'm not interested in), * "Tell the truth – or, at least, don't lie." (I lied to myself a lot when the facts didn't support my beliefs; that was a mistake). * "Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don't." (I started learning much more quickly when I realized that I didn't know everything). The bad: Peterson doesn't live up to his own rules and confidently asserts expertise in areas far outside of his area of knowledge and when pressed he'll serve up some word salad variation of the absolutely mind-destroying (for young minds) position that "there is no right answer/it's impossible to know what's true so you can ignore that evidence that contradicts your beliefs" (paraphrasing based on things I've heard him say on climate science, epistemology, science, biology, etc). Also, he really likes pushing some pretty racist or offensive theories when far more plausible explanations exist without being grotesquely racist. For example, in this clip [0], Peterson and Stefan Molyneux (a deplatformed eugenicist, as you may infer from the clip) assert genetic are the explanation for differences observed in IQ testing when grouping by race. Peterson just asserts that genetics are the cause of the measured difference, even though that theory is contradicted by many studies of twins [1] that show socioeconomic status has far more explanatory power than genetics do. Further, the difference in socioeconomic status by race is a direct consequence of explicitly racist federal housing policies [2] (seriously, ctrl+f through this underwriting manual for the string "racial"; it's explicit about the intention to push black people into ghettos far from economic opportunity, while creating economically prosperous and racially homogeneous neighborhoods for white Americans that have natural defenses against "infiltration of inharmonious racial groups", all by only underwriting mortgages for homes in racially homogeneous neighborhoods located near abundant economic opportunity). Why would Peterson assert some races are genetically inferior when the facts invalidate that hypothesis and much more explanations that haven't been refuted by reality exist? TL;DR: Peterson is not a good role model. If you need a role model for coming into adulthood, you can do much better than Jordan Peterson. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HPiDbPjUzg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HPiDbPjUzg [1] http://ibg.colorado.edu/cdrom2016/franic/Moderation/Lit/Turkheimer_2003.pdf http://ibg.colorado.edu/cdrom2016/franic/Moderation/Lit/Turk... [2] https://www.huduser.gov/portal/sites/default/files/pdf/Federal-Housing-Administration-Underwriting-Manual.pdf https://www.huduser.gov/portal/sites/default/files/pdf/Feder...

dijit 4y ago

The issue with Peterson is that anything outside of socioeconomics and psychology are drivel. He has two tendencies which make him frustrating: first, he will state a statistic and follow up with an opinion, and when challenged he will reply that it’s not his views it is simply statistics. This can be very disingenuous, as you can infer many things from the same statistic. The second, and much more egregious crime, is that he’s a climate change denier and proposes appeasement towards Russia. His life advice is very good, and he talks about many interesting societal things, but when I see videos of him claiming himself to be a prophet: I am left with a sour taste.

heurisko 4y ago
> first, he will state a statistic and follow up with an opinion, and when challenged he will reply that it’s not his views it is simply statistics. I think you will have to give an example. > The second, and much more egregious crime, is that he’s a climate change denier and proposes appeasement towards Russia. Those are opinions, not crimes. And I don't believe he denies climate change, but rather many of the proposals designed to combat it are causing more harm than good, e.g. Germany unilaterally deciding to decarbonise whilst relying on Russian gas.
- dijit 4y ago
  He said on Joe Rogan that the problem was that “climate means everything and you can’t model everything” - which is not an opinion, it’s just false: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/27/word-salad-of-nonsense-scientists-denounce-jordan-petersons-comments-on-climate-models https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/27/word-sal... Here’s his comments about appeasement (taken from his 51 minute documentary about it): https://youtube.com/shorts/cj2axyfmcoE?feature=share https://youtube.com/shorts/cj2axyfmcoE?feature=share The proceeding examples are crimes because they are untruths that will cost human lives. —- In this video he uses the technique: https://youtu.be/Qnzd5w2FSr4 https://youtu.be/Qnzd5w2FSr4 And as he says about Elliot Page: “this person is a role model and will be emulated, they have a responsibility” this applies to Peterson himself.
noxer 4y ago
> The second, and much more egregious crime, is that he’s a climate change denier.... He does not deny climate change, he rejects climate change catastrophe fear driven measurements of questionable efficacy with known unquestionable negative side effect for many many people. AKA things like the west moving their emissions to poor counties in order to "green" their economy. Or things like raising energy cost in an attempt to incentivizes people to use less energy. The problem here is that this affects the poor people proportionally more. It may reduce emission from the "rich" a tiny bit but it pushes million of people globally into poverty. Ofc anyone is entitled to disagree with him. Many do in fact think the end justifies the means. Many people think it is totally acceptable that some people wont make it but "saving the planet" has the higher priority else we are all not gonna make it. Unsurprisingly Peterson as a psychologist has the focus (or bias if you want) on the individual therefore it would be morally wrong to push someone into poverty today to solve a problem of the future. Again anyone can disagree with him on that but calling him climate change denier isn't disagreeing its just slander to avoid the complex moral problems around the topic.

davidguetta 4y ago

Yes Jordan Perterson is known to have a similar 'effect' (in a more "moderate" way i'd say).

modriano 4y ago

Jordan Peterson is a mixed bag; a little good, but a lot of bad. The good: Some of the rules from his "12 rules" are legitimately good advice that I wish I had embraced sooner in my life. * "Treat yourself like you are someone you are responsible for helping." (this is just good advice) * "Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone else is today." (mixed bag on this; a shoulder chip was a great motivator and learning that I'm not an imposter and never was has made me healthier but it's harder to motivate myself on work I'm not interested in), * "Tell the truth – or, at least, don't lie." (I lied to myself a lot when the facts didn't support my beliefs; that was a mistake). * "Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don't." (I started learning much more quickly when I realized that I didn't know everything). The bad: Peterson doesn't live up to his own rules and confidently asserts expertise in areas far outside of his area of knowledge and when pressed he'll serve up some word salad variation of the absolutely mind-destroying (for young minds) position that "there is no right answer/it's impossible to know what's true so you can ignore that evidence that contradicts your beliefs" (paraphrasing based on things I've heard him say on climate science, epistemology, science, biology, etc). Also, he really likes pushing some pretty racist or offensive theories when far more plausible explanations exist without being grotesquely racist. For example, in this clip [0], Peterson and Stefan Molyneux (a deplatformed eugenicist, as you may infer from the clip) assert genetic are the explanation for differences observed in IQ testing when grouping by race. Peterson just asserts that genetics are the cause of the measured difference, even though that theory is contradicted by many studies of twins [1] that show socioeconomic status has far more explanatory power than genetics do. Further, the difference in socioeconomic status by race is a direct consequence of explicitly racist federal housing policies [2] (seriously, ctrl+f through this underwriting manual for the string "racial"; it's explicit about the intention to push black people into ghettos far from economic opportunity, while creating economically prosperous and racially homogeneous neighborhoods for white Americans that have natural defenses against "infiltration of inharmonious racial groups", all by only underwriting mortgages for homes in racially homogeneous neighborhoods located near abundant economic opportunity). Why would Peterson assert some races are genetically inferior when the facts invalidate that hypothesis and much more explanations that haven't been refuted by reality exist? TL;DR: Peterson is not a good role model. If you need a role model for coming into adulthood, you can do much better than Jordan Peterson. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HPiDbPjUzg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HPiDbPjUzg [1] http://ibg.colorado.edu/cdrom2016/franic/Moderation/Lit/Turkheimer_2003.pdf http://ibg.colorado.edu/cdrom2016/franic/Moderation/Lit/Turk... [2] https://www.huduser.gov/portal/sites/default/files/pdf/Federal-Housing-Administration-Underwriting-Manual.pdf https://www.huduser.gov/portal/sites/default/files/pdf/Feder...