5 ms·

The middle class suburban neighborhood beautification model works. None of us work as full time landscapers, we all mow our lawns so all our houses look better

by VLM 4y ago

The middle class suburban neighborhood beautification model works. None of us work as full time landscapers, we all mow our lawns so all our houses look better as a group. People too antisocial to live in our neighborhood... don't. There would have to be a solution to those people. They probably don't drag us down too much so they might not matter, either WRT neighborhoods OR source code. I don't mow my lawn because my neighbor sends me micropayments for it or I have some elaborate and weird "HOA"-like contractual obligation to mow my lawn, I just mow it because that's what homeowners do around here and I moved here to fit in with them so obviously I don't mind, its good exercise at worst and almost hobby recreation when I'm planting flowers in the springtime. Likewise I do a pitiful amount of FOSS stuff but more than nothing, because that's what 'my people', and the people I like to hand out with, do. Don't have a day job doing ONLY corporate work or ONLY FOSS work, do some of each. And don't expect a paycheck for the volunteer work. When I help pack boxes of food for hungry people at church I don't expect much of a paycheck either, but its just something I do with some of my spare time. The hidden assumption is always that if paid corporates had not relied on free FOSS their paid for code would be higher quality... Naah they'd probably get powned twice as much its just they wouldn't be able to outsource the responsibility for bad code to some other organization. Fundamentally at the end of the day every org in the link "made more money" because of FOSS than they would have lost if they wrote inferior non-FOSS copycats of the FOSS code.

rpastuszak 4y ago
> Don't have a day job doing ONLY corporate work or ONLY FOSS work, do some of each. And don't expect a paycheck for the volunteer work. Some FOSS projects will require people working on them full-time. I think a better, long-term approach would be to make FOSS work sustainable.
- throwawaaarrgh 4y ago
  give money to somebody to develop something given away for free? just because it enables businesses / keeps people secure / gives agency to customers / reduces monopoly dependency / increases derivative works? that's Commie talk! I'll take it if someone makes it free, of course. but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay some insignificant tax to support it!!
augusto-moura 4y ago
This is a very flawed comparison. Nobody uses your lawn to make business. If someone depends on your lawn mowing for their business, and they require it to be on a high level of quality I would expect no less of a payment for that
- killjoywashere 4y ago
  The developer made tons of money on a forward looking basis from the market expectation that you would mow your lawn. And everyone who sold their home for a profit did. And everyone who is now making their home available as a traditional rental is. And everyone who provides their home as a short-term (vrbo, airbnb, etc) rental is.
  - flutas 4y ago
    > The developer made tons of money on a forward looking basis from the market expectation that you would mow your lawn. Nah, they sold you land, a commodity. They don't care if you tear the house down to put in a parking lot (though your city probably does). > And everyone who sold their home for a profit did. > And everyone who is now making their home available as a traditional rental is. > And everyone who provides their home as a short-term (vrbo, airbnb, etc) rental is. And those people are the ones who own said lawn. Imagine if Walmart/Amazon/Google decided to open a shop on your lawn without compensating you.
    - thayne 4y ago
      > Nah, they sold you land, a commodity. They don't care if you tear the house down to put in a parking lot (though your city probably does). That is not how developers work. They very much do care if you tear down your house and put in a parking lot, because unless you bought the last lot in the development, they still have more land in the area to sell, and your actions could decrease the value of that land.
  - augusto-moura 4y ago
    You are open to take your projects as hobbies. But this is not what a lot of the projects that we are talking are. It might look like some smaller packages are just toys, but people take them seriously.
scrollaway 4y ago
Bad comparisons aside, maybe you should try not mowing your lawn for a while and see what actually happens. My guess, you'll learn a lot about that contractual obligation you don't have. Mowing the lawn as often as most suburban americans do is a pretty awful thing for a breadbasket of environmental reasons (pollution, noise, soil quality, biodiversity, …). And yet. Also, the american lawn really sucks. That's kind of another topic, but it's still a worthwhile plug to this excellent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tfao7CZ0xQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tfao7CZ0xQ
ttymck 4y ago
I can agree that it's foolish to expect payment for labor done without agreement of compensation, but your likening of volunteering at a soup kitchen to Amazon profiting from FOSS contributions doesn't quite land for me.
hinkley 4y ago
I suspect we're going to end up with a separate set of OSS licenses based on author and contributor behavior that is fair play for the project. The other hidden assumption is around building your own or selecting existing tools. We used to call that 'Build or Buy', but there's no demand for proprietary tools in a landscape full of Free ones. There's often not even demand for new Free tools in a landscape chock full of mediocre options. So the choice has been taken away and replaced with a false one. It's reinvent the wheel or use unsupported software and never ever complain about it where anyone can quote you on it. Or do without, which puts you at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of your industry.
nikau 4y ago
> When I help pack boxes of food for hungry people at church I don't expect much of a paycheck either, but its just something I do with some of my spare time But you might get jaded if VPs of fortune 500 companies were turning up for the free food.

by VLM 4y ago

rpastuszak 4y ago

> Don't have a day job doing ONLY corporate work or ONLY FOSS work, do some of each. And don't expect a paycheck for the volunteer work. Some FOSS projects will require people working on them full-time. I think a better, long-term approach would be to make FOSS work sustainable.

throwawaaarrgh 4y ago
give money to somebody to develop something given away for free? just because it enables businesses / keeps people secure / gives agency to customers / reduces monopoly dependency / increases derivative works? that's Commie talk! I'll take it if someone makes it free, of course. but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay some insignificant tax to support it!!

augusto-moura 4y ago

This is a very flawed comparison. Nobody uses your lawn to make business. If someone depends on your lawn mowing for their business, and they require it to be on a high level of quality I would expect no less of a payment for that

killjoywashere 4y ago
The developer made tons of money on a forward looking basis from the market expectation that you would mow your lawn. And everyone who sold their home for a profit did. And everyone who is now making their home available as a traditional rental is. And everyone who provides their home as a short-term (vrbo, airbnb, etc) rental is.
- flutas 4y ago
  > The developer made tons of money on a forward looking basis from the market expectation that you would mow your lawn. Nah, they sold you land, a commodity. They don't care if you tear the house down to put in a parking lot (though your city probably does). > And everyone who sold their home for a profit did. > And everyone who is now making their home available as a traditional rental is. > And everyone who provides their home as a short-term (vrbo, airbnb, etc) rental is. And those people are the ones who own said lawn. Imagine if Walmart/Amazon/Google decided to open a shop on your lawn without compensating you.
  - thayne 4y ago
    > Nah, they sold you land, a commodity. They don't care if you tear the house down to put in a parking lot (though your city probably does). That is not how developers work. They very much do care if you tear down your house and put in a parking lot, because unless you bought the last lot in the development, they still have more land in the area to sell, and your actions could decrease the value of that land.
- augusto-moura 4y ago
  You are open to take your projects as hobbies. But this is not what a lot of the projects that we are talking are. It might look like some smaller packages are just toys, but people take them seriously.

scrollaway 4y ago

Bad comparisons aside, maybe you should try not mowing your lawn for a while and see what actually happens. My guess, you'll learn a lot about that contractual obligation you don't have. Mowing the lawn as often as most suburban americans do is a pretty awful thing for a breadbasket of environmental reasons (pollution, noise, soil quality, biodiversity, …). And yet. Also, the american lawn really sucks. That's kind of another topic, but it's still a worthwhile plug to this excellent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tfao7CZ0xQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tfao7CZ0xQ

ttymck 4y ago

I can agree that it's foolish to expect payment for labor done without agreement of compensation, but your likening of volunteering at a soup kitchen to Amazon profiting from FOSS contributions doesn't quite land for me.

hinkley 4y ago

I suspect we're going to end up with a separate set of OSS licenses based on author and contributor behavior that is fair play for the project. The other hidden assumption is around building your own or selecting existing tools. We used to call that 'Build or Buy', but there's no demand for proprietary tools in a landscape full of Free ones. There's often not even demand for new Free tools in a landscape chock full of mediocre options. So the choice has been taken away and replaced with a false one. It's reinvent the wheel or use unsupported software and never ever complain about it where anyone can quote you on it. Or do without, which puts you at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of your industry.

nikau 4y ago

> When I help pack boxes of food for hungry people at church I don't expect much of a paycheck either, but its just something I do with some of my spare time But you might get jaded if VPs of fortune 500 companies were turning up for the free food.