4 ms·

You’re saying these people were able to understand one of the major aspects of their make-up and were able, after years of struggle, to at least give a name to

You’re saying these people were able to understand one of the major aspects of their make-up and were able, after years of struggle, to at least give a name to the reason for the struggle they still had to deal with. They must have had some sense of relief when they got diagnosed. Perhaps they thought they would be given a little bit of a break by those who expected them to act like people who are literally not like them. Perhaps they found, though, that despite finally being able to show others that they weren’t just lazy, or stupid, or that they didn’t care, or they weren’t interested in paying attention, or they were just being weird, they were still expected to somehow ‘snap out of it’ and be like people who weren’t like them. After not being able to explain your behaviour for so many years, and then being expected to just somehow ‘identify and understand’ and gain some ‘deeper understanding’ would sound to them exactly like ‘you can just try to stop being yourself now you have a label, right?’ It’s exhausting. Even with - and especially with - those you love and who you see every day, including those who are on the spectrum themselves, there is still a lack of understanding and a pressure to just ‘fix’ yourself, and do so consistently. No wonder some, as soon as they get a diagnosis, default to saying ‘I did that because I am X’ and don’t want to have to bow and promise to work on themselves so that they can be a better - different - person. They are doing this every day because they feel the weight of society. They don’t need to have those closest to them be the nagging voice of that society.

Tijdreiziger 4y ago
As someone who got an ASD diagnosis later in life, this is absolutely spot on.
- prvit 4y ago
  And as someone who got an ASD and ADHD diagnosis earlier in life (which doctors are now unable to reproduce), this couldn’t be further from being spot on. So much unnecessary bullshit I had to go through because shrinks were too eager to label me as a kid. In the end my only fault was a general aversion to authority, only further intensified by this experience.
  - tokamak-teapot 4y ago
    If you're referring to the 'overdiagnosis' (i.e. misdiagnosis) of ASD/ADHD early in life, I completely agree that this shouldn't be happening. I also wasn't arguing for early diagnosis, as I understand the dangers of this, not simply because it's difficult to get right, but I am worried that handling the label in a useful way does seem like it could be more difficult at a younger stage of development. I was commenting on what appeared to be an assumption - by the commenter I replied to - that those they had dealt with were lazily (!) using their diagnosis label as some kind of excuse for their behaviour or to avoid challenge. The original commenter could, of course, be entirely correct, but some of the most difficult aspects of ADHD to deal with are: Not being believed - the assumption that you're actually just lazy, or otherwise morally defective Constant pressure to 'get over' your ADHD, never letting it influence your actions (or inaction) It's difficult to relate how much these two pressures can cause agony within the family - with _or_ without any knowledge or understanding of ADHD, and with or without any diagnosis. The intent of my comment was to ask for patience and understanding for those affected, not to advocate for or against any position on diagnosis.
zozbot234 4y ago
> a pressure to just ‘fix’ yourself, and do so consistently Now that's just silly, though. "Fixing yourself" is a ridiculously hard problem even for those who don't have the benefit of a formal diagnosis - the ones anyone would simply dismiss as lazy, stupid, uncaring, weird etc. etc. That's basically what wisdom is. It's not clear that the formal choice of getting a diagnosis is changing anything substantial beyond the picking of an arbitrary label for some known cluster of behaviors, perhaps with varying amounts of personal or social adaptiveness.
- rhaway84773 4y ago
  A formal diagnosis has helped many people significantly in living their lives. It allows them to get medications and/or support that they need. It might be useful to actually talk to people who receive these diagnoses. In my personal experience I have seen people benefit greatly from formal diagnoses (even if initially it takes time to make sense of it). But even if there are people who are hurt by a formal diagnosis, their numbers are absolutely demolished in comparison to the numbers of people who would benefit by help for mental health issues but never seek it out. Complaining about people who might not be responding perfectly to a diagnosis seems like a drastically minor issue relative to people who have undiagnosed mental health issues.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    Undiagnosed mental health issues such as being lazy and unmotivated? There's lots of people like that out there. For that matter, the formal mental health field can hardly be said to have a monopoly on soulcraft. Seeking wisdom and striving to improve one's core state of being are practices as old as man himself.
    - rhaway84773 4y ago
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
roenxi 4y ago
There is a pervasive theme in this comment that labelling people is an action that helps them. Maybe. In some cases yes. But it is suspicious generality - there are also a lot of cases where people being labelled is an action that harms them. Especially since all the sciences involving the human mind have long histories of quackery, failure and discrimination to draw on. The results are rarely clear and the goals of the people involved are cloudy. There is probably some balance between the perspectives here and finding it is the real question here.
- robbiep 4y ago
  This isn’t my field so trying to speak with any authority isn’t possible but amongst my close colleagues we feel that pervasive labelling and the need to name every phase ends up creating in some people ‘tethers’ around which a person’s entire psychological makeup revolves. It’s good to forget sometimes. Ie person goes through bad breakup. Would meet clinical (DSM-V) depression definition. After a year goes and sees a therapist and gets on antidepressants. Begins to feel good. Stays with therapy. The rest of their life is now a pivot point around that breakup. They’re labelled as depressed. Other stuff comes up. In some worlds, maybe that’s necessary. In others, maybe they come good, make lifestyle changes, find happiness again, and don’t have the label or the antidepressants for life.

Tijdreiziger 4y ago

As someone who got an ASD diagnosis later in life, this is absolutely spot on.

prvit 4y ago
And as someone who got an ASD and ADHD diagnosis earlier in life (which doctors are now unable to reproduce), this couldn’t be further from being spot on. So much unnecessary bullshit I had to go through because shrinks were too eager to label me as a kid. In the end my only fault was a general aversion to authority, only further intensified by this experience.
- tokamak-teapot 4y ago
  If you're referring to the 'overdiagnosis' (i.e. misdiagnosis) of ASD/ADHD early in life, I completely agree that this shouldn't be happening. I also wasn't arguing for early diagnosis, as I understand the dangers of this, not simply because it's difficult to get right, but I am worried that handling the label in a useful way does seem like it could be more difficult at a younger stage of development. I was commenting on what appeared to be an assumption - by the commenter I replied to - that those they had dealt with were lazily (!) using their diagnosis label as some kind of excuse for their behaviour or to avoid challenge. The original commenter could, of course, be entirely correct, but some of the most difficult aspects of ADHD to deal with are: Not being believed - the assumption that you're actually just lazy, or otherwise morally defective Constant pressure to 'get over' your ADHD, never letting it influence your actions (or inaction) It's difficult to relate how much these two pressures can cause agony within the family - with _or_ without any knowledge or understanding of ADHD, and with or without any diagnosis. The intent of my comment was to ask for patience and understanding for those affected, not to advocate for or against any position on diagnosis.

zozbot234 4y ago

> a pressure to just ‘fix’ yourself, and do so consistently Now that's just silly, though. "Fixing yourself" is a ridiculously hard problem even for those who don't have the benefit of a formal diagnosis - the ones anyone would simply dismiss as lazy, stupid, uncaring, weird etc. etc. That's basically what wisdom is. It's not clear that the formal choice of getting a diagnosis is changing anything substantial beyond the picking of an arbitrary label for some known cluster of behaviors, perhaps with varying amounts of personal or social adaptiveness.

rhaway84773 4y ago
A formal diagnosis has helped many people significantly in living their lives. It allows them to get medications and/or support that they need. It might be useful to actually talk to people who receive these diagnoses. In my personal experience I have seen people benefit greatly from formal diagnoses (even if initially it takes time to make sense of it). But even if there are people who are hurt by a formal diagnosis, their numbers are absolutely demolished in comparison to the numbers of people who would benefit by help for mental health issues but never seek it out. Complaining about people who might not be responding perfectly to a diagnosis seems like a drastically minor issue relative to people who have undiagnosed mental health issues.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  Undiagnosed mental health issues such as being lazy and unmotivated? There's lots of people like that out there. For that matter, the formal mental health field can hardly be said to have a monopoly on soulcraft. Seeking wisdom and striving to improve one's core state of being are practices as old as man himself.
  - rhaway84773 4y ago
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

roenxi 4y ago

There is a pervasive theme in this comment that labelling people is an action that helps them. Maybe. In some cases yes. But it is suspicious generality - there are also a lot of cases where people being labelled is an action that harms them. Especially since all the sciences involving the human mind have long histories of quackery, failure and discrimination to draw on. The results are rarely clear and the goals of the people involved are cloudy. There is probably some balance between the perspectives here and finding it is the real question here.

robbiep 4y ago
This isn’t my field so trying to speak with any authority isn’t possible but amongst my close colleagues we feel that pervasive labelling and the need to name every phase ends up creating in some people ‘tethers’ around which a person’s entire psychological makeup revolves. It’s good to forget sometimes. Ie person goes through bad breakup. Would meet clinical (DSM-V) depression definition. After a year goes and sees a therapist and gets on antidepressants. Begins to feel good. Stays with therapy. The rest of their life is now a pivot point around that breakup. They’re labelled as depressed. Other stuff comes up. In some worlds, maybe that’s necessary. In others, maybe they come good, make lifestyle changes, find happiness again, and don’t have the label or the antidepressants for life.