4 ms·

“Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words can break hearts”

chiefalchemist 4y ago
Not to nitpick, but the words have no value. The value comes from what you or me assign to them. Certainly there are things in your past (or mine) that we heard and effectively ignored. But if heard again we'd laugh or cry. The point is, the meaning we attach to the words are literally in our heads. We determine the worlds they create. It's not the other way around.
- annyeonghada 4y ago
  Completely disagree. The "heaviness" of an insult is determined by various factors: how much you value the person holding that opinion, how much you want to be accepted, how many rejections you got through... We are not robots that can automatically choose to not care: in the past I was in the stoic camp, red Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca and so on but now I recognize that that philosophy brought me lots of pain: even if I cannot control something, like others opinion, it doesn't mean that I should not try to change it. Humanity get by by dreaming of something better: being through religion, riches, wisdom and so on; stoicism (and in part meditation) destroyed that impulse to improve.
  - javajosh 4y ago
    The insult is a signal that something is wrong in the world, and may require effort and attention, even if you aren't suffering because of the insult. But no this isn't particularly useful to actual humans who are still (easily) overwhelmed to madness with reactive pain, and the stoics compassion feels like that shown by the (non-hysterical) passengers in that one Airplane! scene [0]. (It occurs to me that expressing cruelty toward those suffering from hysterics is more than mere sadism; it may be a legitimate coping mechanism with their own fear. Focusing the mind on something, even hatefully, can save the hater from their own fear that the world is completely out-of-control.) 0 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNkpIDBtC2c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNkpIDBtC2c
  - CTDOCodebases 4y ago
    I'm no philosopher but my understanding is the stoics didn't simply choose not to care, they were selective about what they cared about. When someone insults you are they responsible for how much you value their opinion? Are they responsible for how much you want to be accepted? Are they responsible for how many rejections you have had in the past?
  - GoldenMonkey 4y ago
    I don’t think stoicism was applied correctly. Stoicism is about controlling what you have control over. Chief among this… is our thoughts. Thoughts matter. How one thinks about things, events, situations that happen to us… matter. Re-framing and interpreting how one thinks about what happened to us. Is important, for peace of mind. Cognitive Behavior Therapy is an example of how one can apply stoicism.
    - CTDOCodebases 4y ago
      I would put it differently. Stoicism is about realising what you have control over and what you do not. It about acknowledging the agency you have no matter how little it may be. Even if you have a tendency to be very reactive there is always something you can do to nullify or lessen the impact of an insult.
  - chiefalchemist 4y ago
    > We are not robots that can automatically choose to not care: We are not robots. We are human. And while we cannot be automated, we survived due to our ability to adapt. Where we channel your attention, what we choose to focus on, and what we choose to value *is* something we have control over. The idea that someone saying something to me and those words control me, my mind, and my world...that's silly.
- javajosh 4y ago
  Your comment is very vague. Words cause an involuntary reaction that cannot be turned off. You cannot stop understanding English at will. You cannot stop being hurt if you're rejected at will. In that sense the statement "words don't hurt" is simply false, and contradicts the direct lived experience of every human on earth (except those who train to not let words get to them, such as lawyers and politicians).
  - Nomentatus 4y ago
    But over decades, almost every human being has far more moderated "involuntary responses" to words. Life trains us that most of the time its better to just move on, and choose our company more carefully, if nothing else.
- MonkeyClub 4y ago
  > Not to nitpick, but the words have no value. The value comes from what you or me assign to them. I don't think this holds, otherwise every libel suit would be thrown out of court on the basis of "that's what you think it means". Not to mention that we have dictionaries that record the assigned meanings of words :-)
  - kortilla 4y ago
    Libel cases aren’t about having your feelings hurt, it’s about reputation damage. Internal vs external.
  - chiefalchemist 4y ago
    Libel suit? Are we all going to court in our minds every day? All day? We're talking about personal experience and personal responsibility.
jazzyk 4y ago
Words can break hearts when they come from a loved one, or someone you look up to. Why would what some random person says break your heart?
- solveit 4y ago
  Because you're fourteen, those randos are your peer group, and you're stuck with them all day. Also, you're fourteen so you haven't quite figured out whose opinions should be important to you, and also you're wildly insecure about your position in your world.
  - jazzyk 4y ago
    Life is not fair and not a bed of roses, never will be. These experiences make you tougher - in adult life, you will run into toxic bosses, colleagues, brutal job interviewers... It is important to have a loving family and/or supportive friends who can provide a different point of reference.
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      I'm frankly not a fan of hyperstitious social pessimism. Everyone needs to understand that this isn't knowledge, it's justification. It's justification for being an asshole to people under the guise of 'helping' them. The people who end up believing it are rubes who do the same to others. Making someone tougher is survivorship bias by another name. It fails to account for the people who don't have supportive family members and friends. It's solution to this is saying, "it sucks, but they just couldn't take it," which does nothing to make things even slightly better for the next person. We're left with those who survived.
    - elboru 4y ago
      Funny enough I haven’t encountered bigger a-holes than the bullies in my childhood.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      Abuse doesn't actually make people stronger. What helps people become stronger is overcoming adversity. You want people to challenge you and to run into obstacles to overcome, but people who are routinely abused just end up far more likely to have mental disorders later. Nobody is better off or "stronger" for having PTSD. Toxic bosses, colleagues, brutal job interviewers are no where near as violent or persistent or inescapable as childhood bullies and if those toxic people did half the things kids do to each other they'd be quickly arrested and thrown behind bars.

Not to nitpick, but the words have no value. The value comes from what you or me assign to them. Certainly there are things in your past (or mine) that we heard and effectively ignored. But if heard again we'd laugh or cry. The point is, the meaning we attach to the words are literally in our heads. We determine the worlds they create. It's not the other way around.

annyeonghada 4y ago
Completely disagree. The "heaviness" of an insult is determined by various factors: how much you value the person holding that opinion, how much you want to be accepted, how many rejections you got through... We are not robots that can automatically choose to not care: in the past I was in the stoic camp, red Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca and so on but now I recognize that that philosophy brought me lots of pain: even if I cannot control something, like others opinion, it doesn't mean that I should not try to change it. Humanity get by by dreaming of something better: being through religion, riches, wisdom and so on; stoicism (and in part meditation) destroyed that impulse to improve.
- javajosh 4y ago
  The insult is a signal that something is wrong in the world, and may require effort and attention, even if you aren't suffering because of the insult. But no this isn't particularly useful to actual humans who are still (easily) overwhelmed to madness with reactive pain, and the stoics compassion feels like that shown by the (non-hysterical) passengers in that one Airplane! scene [0]. (It occurs to me that expressing cruelty toward those suffering from hysterics is more than mere sadism; it may be a legitimate coping mechanism with their own fear. Focusing the mind on something, even hatefully, can save the hater from their own fear that the world is completely out-of-control.) 0 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNkpIDBtC2c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNkpIDBtC2c
- CTDOCodebases 4y ago
  I'm no philosopher but my understanding is the stoics didn't simply choose not to care, they were selective about what they cared about. When someone insults you are they responsible for how much you value their opinion? Are they responsible for how much you want to be accepted? Are they responsible for how many rejections you have had in the past?
- GoldenMonkey 4y ago
  I don’t think stoicism was applied correctly. Stoicism is about controlling what you have control over. Chief among this… is our thoughts. Thoughts matter. How one thinks about things, events, situations that happen to us… matter. Re-framing and interpreting how one thinks about what happened to us. Is important, for peace of mind. Cognitive Behavior Therapy is an example of how one can apply stoicism.
  - CTDOCodebases 4y ago
    I would put it differently. Stoicism is about realising what you have control over and what you do not. It about acknowledging the agency you have no matter how little it may be. Even if you have a tendency to be very reactive there is always something you can do to nullify or lessen the impact of an insult.
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  > We are not robots that can automatically choose to not care: We are not robots. We are human. And while we cannot be automated, we survived due to our ability to adapt. Where we channel your attention, what we choose to focus on, and what we choose to value *is* something we have control over. The idea that someone saying something to me and those words control me, my mind, and my world...that's silly.
javajosh 4y ago
Your comment is very vague. Words cause an involuntary reaction that cannot be turned off. You cannot stop understanding English at will. You cannot stop being hurt if you're rejected at will. In that sense the statement "words don't hurt" is simply false, and contradicts the direct lived experience of every human on earth (except those who train to not let words get to them, such as lawyers and politicians).
- Nomentatus 4y ago
  But over decades, almost every human being has far more moderated "involuntary responses" to words. Life trains us that most of the time its better to just move on, and choose our company more carefully, if nothing else.
MonkeyClub 4y ago
> Not to nitpick, but the words have no value. The value comes from what you or me assign to them. I don't think this holds, otherwise every libel suit would be thrown out of court on the basis of "that's what you think it means". Not to mention that we have dictionaries that record the assigned meanings of words :-)
- kortilla 4y ago
  Libel cases aren’t about having your feelings hurt, it’s about reputation damage. Internal vs external.
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  Libel suit? Are we all going to court in our minds every day? All day? We're talking about personal experience and personal responsibility.

jazzyk 4y ago

Words can break hearts when they come from a loved one, or someone you look up to. Why would what some random person says break your heart?

solveit 4y ago
Because you're fourteen, those randos are your peer group, and you're stuck with them all day. Also, you're fourteen so you haven't quite figured out whose opinions should be important to you, and also you're wildly insecure about your position in your world.
- jazzyk 4y ago
  Life is not fair and not a bed of roses, never will be. These experiences make you tougher - in adult life, you will run into toxic bosses, colleagues, brutal job interviewers... It is important to have a loving family and/or supportive friends who can provide a different point of reference.
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    I'm frankly not a fan of hyperstitious social pessimism. Everyone needs to understand that this isn't knowledge, it's justification. It's justification for being an asshole to people under the guise of 'helping' them. The people who end up believing it are rubes who do the same to others. Making someone tougher is survivorship bias by another name. It fails to account for the people who don't have supportive family members and friends. It's solution to this is saying, "it sucks, but they just couldn't take it," which does nothing to make things even slightly better for the next person. We're left with those who survived.
  - elboru 4y ago
    Funny enough I haven’t encountered bigger a-holes than the bullies in my childhood.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    Abuse doesn't actually make people stronger. What helps people become stronger is overcoming adversity. You want people to challenge you and to run into obstacles to overcome, but people who are routinely abused just end up far more likely to have mental disorders later. Nobody is better off or "stronger" for having PTSD. Toxic bosses, colleagues, brutal job interviewers are no where near as violent or persistent or inescapable as childhood bullies and if those toxic people did half the things kids do to each other they'd be quickly arrested and thrown behind bars.