6 ms·

> For these younger people, the numpad and navigation keys are an impediment to reaching the mouse. For me it’s the opposite: the navigation keys is how I norma

by least 4y ago

> For these younger people, the numpad and navigation keys are an impediment to reaching the mouse. For me it’s the opposite: the navigation keys is how I normally navigate (outside of vi controls) and the numpad is for numbers. The mouse is the input device of last resort. The mouse, the navigation cluster, and the number pad all require you to remove your hands from the home keys position in order to use them. Many of these smaller layout keyboards facilitate accessing these and the function keys under layers. I have several of these layer toggles on alpha keys, including the ones on the home row. The question then is does the chorded key offer more utility than a discrete physical one but requires you to move your arms away from home position? I think in many cases the answer is yes, it does, and it's not simply about aesthetics. It's more efficient keyboarding in most circumstances. Its weakness of course is in situations where accessing keys is time sensitive. The most obvious case where chording is strictly worse than discrete keys is gaming, where you need to be able to press various buttons quickly and often in very quick succession. In most other standard computing tasks where you're primarily typing, that isn't a meaningful consideration.

anikom15 4y ago
I’ve always found chords difficult. Doing lots of chords starts to strain after a while. I much prefer modal solutions and sensible use of navigation keys when the right hand isn’t doing much typing (my work is not just typing/programming, and I do a tremendous amount of number entry, so both the navigation cluster and numpad see a lot of use). I am a vim user after all. I’ve never liked chords as long as I can remember, so it seems more of a natural preference than a result of efficiency. I often get the various key combinations, but linear workflows are easy for me (e.g. :line number). In a sense, moving my hand to the navigation keys becomes ‘navigation mode’ and moving my hand to the numpad becomes ‘accounting mode’. I think I am also more sensitive to strain as I prefer trackballs over mice and trackpads. Laptops are particular rough for me. I can’t imagine sitting on a couch with just a Macbook Pro all day. Many of my colleagues are fine with that!
- least 4y ago
  > I’ve always found chords difficult. Doing lots of chords starts to strain after a while. I agree that on a non-programmable, standard layout keyboard, chords are going to be uncomfortable. The most strain I use for chording currently is with the shift key, though. I can access the other layers and even modifiers on much easier to access keys. My keyboard also has a thumb cluster which vastly improves the chording experience. I can activate layers using my thumb so there is no additional strain on accessing them. For example, to access navigation arrows, I hold the "backspace" key down, which is a key on my left thumb cluster, and then press hjkl with my right hand. There's another layer that converts the right side of my keyboard into a number pad. I also have modifier keys sitting on my home row keys (shift, alt/option, cmd/super, ctrl has its own dedicated key in my left thumb cluster, though it also sits on the home row). What is the "caps lock" key on most keyboards serves as an "escape" key when tapped and when I hold it down it activates all four modifier keys, colloquially known as the "hyper" key, which I use for global shortcuts. There's a ton of functionality that makes using the computer itself easier and reduces the need to use the mouse. > I much prefer modal solutions and sensible use of navigation keys when the right hand isn’t doing much typing (my work is not just typing/programming, and I do a tremendous amount of number entry, so both the navigation cluster and numpad see a lot of use). I am a vim user after all. I've been using weird split keyboard layouts for a long time now. I don't do a ton of number entry. I think if you are then it does make sense to use a number pad, but I also think that the number of people that think they need a number pad is much greater than the number of people that actually do. Not suggesting that's the case for you, it's just been my personal observation. I would prefer a modal solution as well, but that would require a complete rethinking at the operating system level, which is more than I personally am capable of taking on. You can assign a key to toggle a layer in QMK/ZMK, though, so you could actually get that more closely analogs vim. But to create a very good experience, you'd need a keyboard that is talking to the computer and is aware of states all over the computer. > I think I am also more sensitive to strain as I prefer trackballs over mice and trackpads. Laptops are particular rough for me. I can’t imagine sitting on a couch with just a Macbook Pro all day. Many of my colleagues are fine with that! In my experience, ergonomics is more about balancing wear, like rotating tires, than it is to stop strain entirely. I like finger trackballs a lot, but thumb trackballs put too much strain in the wrong place. I can't sit on a couch and use a macbook pro at all, either, so I can certainly empathize. I envy those people a lot.
maccard 4y ago
Chording requires synchroised keystrokes, and chaining chords can be awkward and error prone. It also puts unnecessary stress on your wrists, and not moving your hands for long periods of time in the name of efficiency is a sure fire way to end up with carpal tunnel syndrome. In almost 15 years of programming, I can't think of a single time where the marginal theoretical efficiency gains were worth more than being able to one handedly type in a TOTP code on a numpad while drinking coffee with my other hand, or my co workers being able to navigate on my computer for 5-10 minutes to show me something only they understand from 10 years ago that still has a "TODO talk to Jon" comment. > In most other standard computing tasks where you're primarily typing The only computing task where I'm primarily typing is when I'm practicing typing. When I'm actively writing code, I'm primarily thinking, planning, and transcribing. When I'm reading code, I'm semantically navigating. When I'm taking notes, writing documentation or responding to communication, again I'm not primarily typing I'm composing. As someone who can touch type to a proficient degree, the improvements I would get from increasing my keystrokes are marginal at best. The real wins are using tools that reduce the mental overhead of those tasks, e.g. when composing an email having automated spell checks fix my most common typos, when writing markdown having a live side by side preview, and when editing code having tools with semantic knowledge so that I can navigate mt code structurally, not as text. Those things give me orders of magnitudes of productivity increases.
- least 4y ago
  > Chording requires synchroised keystrokes, and chaining chords can be awkward and error prone. Chording itself is not all that difficult if your keyboard is set up for it. I think you'd be shocked at what opens source firmware like ZMK and QMK can accomplish. It does require you to recalibrate your mind. You use the "shift" key all the time. Using layers is doing the same, except you can make that layer key whatever you want and wherever you want. This is not more error prone than moving your hands from home row to press a function key. > It also puts unnecessary stress on your wrists, and not moving your hands for long periods of time in the name of efficiency is a sure fire way to end up with carpal tunnel syndrome. It does not add any additional stress on your wrists beyond what normal typing does. No one is suggesting you keep your hands stationary, they're suggesting you keep your keys close enough to you that you don't naturally end up contorting your wrists like you do on a standard layout keyboard. All staggered, nonstandard or otherwise layouts are not ergonomic. They force your fingers and your wrists to contort heavily with use. Whether or not this ends up affecting you depends largely on genetics. There are people twice my age still typing on full sized keyboards and have been their entire life and their hands are perfectly fine. For me personally, using an alternative layout with yes, chorded keys, has made it possible for me to continue typing at all. Also, you're not giving your wrists a break by moving your hand over to the function keys or to the navigation cluster. You do that with actual breaks and stretching. > The only computing task where I'm primarily typing is when I'm practicing typing. When I'm actively writing code, I'm primarily thinking, planning, and transcribing. When I'm reading code, I'm semantically navigating. When I'm taking notes, writing documentation or responding to communication, again I'm not primarily typing I'm composing. As someone who can touch type to a proficient degree, the improvements I would get from increasing my keystrokes are marginal at best. The real wins are using tools that reduce the mental overhead of those tasks, e.g. when composing an email having automated spell checks fix my most common typos, when writing markdown having a live side by side preview, and when editing code having tools with semantic knowledge so that I can navigate mt code structurally, not as text. Those things give me orders of magnitudes of productivity increases. Your argument boils down to you don't think your keyboard matters, in which case you arguing for keeping your full sized standard layout keyboard with a navigation cluster, function row, and number pad is completely moot. This is not the first time I've heard this argument; it's almost always the same one and it's always from obstinate people who've never actually tried anything else, because they're overly confident in their own opinion that their keyboard, the instrument they primarily use to interact with their computer, cannot be improved upon. It's almost zealous. If you are so certain that your keyboard plays such a minor role in your computing, then use something else. Use an on-screen keyboard that you have to click each key with a mouse, that is available on all major operating systems. It is, after all, such a minor and unimportant part of what you do on the computer, after all!

by least 4y ago

anikom15 4y ago

I’ve always found chords difficult. Doing lots of chords starts to strain after a while. I much prefer modal solutions and sensible use of navigation keys when the right hand isn’t doing much typing (my work is not just typing/programming, and I do a tremendous amount of number entry, so both the navigation cluster and numpad see a lot of use). I am a vim user after all. I’ve never liked chords as long as I can remember, so it seems more of a natural preference than a result of efficiency. I often get the various key combinations, but linear workflows are easy for me (e.g. :line number). In a sense, moving my hand to the navigation keys becomes ‘navigation mode’ and moving my hand to the numpad becomes ‘accounting mode’. I think I am also more sensitive to strain as I prefer trackballs over mice and trackpads. Laptops are particular rough for me. I can’t imagine sitting on a couch with just a Macbook Pro all day. Many of my colleagues are fine with that!

least 4y ago
> I’ve always found chords difficult. Doing lots of chords starts to strain after a while. I agree that on a non-programmable, standard layout keyboard, chords are going to be uncomfortable. The most strain I use for chording currently is with the shift key, though. I can access the other layers and even modifiers on much easier to access keys. My keyboard also has a thumb cluster which vastly improves the chording experience. I can activate layers using my thumb so there is no additional strain on accessing them. For example, to access navigation arrows, I hold the "backspace" key down, which is a key on my left thumb cluster, and then press hjkl with my right hand. There's another layer that converts the right side of my keyboard into a number pad. I also have modifier keys sitting on my home row keys (shift, alt/option, cmd/super, ctrl has its own dedicated key in my left thumb cluster, though it also sits on the home row). What is the "caps lock" key on most keyboards serves as an "escape" key when tapped and when I hold it down it activates all four modifier keys, colloquially known as the "hyper" key, which I use for global shortcuts. There's a ton of functionality that makes using the computer itself easier and reduces the need to use the mouse. > I much prefer modal solutions and sensible use of navigation keys when the right hand isn’t doing much typing (my work is not just typing/programming, and I do a tremendous amount of number entry, so both the navigation cluster and numpad see a lot of use). I am a vim user after all. I've been using weird split keyboard layouts for a long time now. I don't do a ton of number entry. I think if you are then it does make sense to use a number pad, but I also think that the number of people that think they need a number pad is much greater than the number of people that actually do. Not suggesting that's the case for you, it's just been my personal observation. I would prefer a modal solution as well, but that would require a complete rethinking at the operating system level, which is more than I personally am capable of taking on. You can assign a key to toggle a layer in QMK/ZMK, though, so you could actually get that more closely analogs vim. But to create a very good experience, you'd need a keyboard that is talking to the computer and is aware of states all over the computer. > I think I am also more sensitive to strain as I prefer trackballs over mice and trackpads. Laptops are particular rough for me. I can’t imagine sitting on a couch with just a Macbook Pro all day. Many of my colleagues are fine with that! In my experience, ergonomics is more about balancing wear, like rotating tires, than it is to stop strain entirely. I like finger trackballs a lot, but thumb trackballs put too much strain in the wrong place. I can't sit on a couch and use a macbook pro at all, either, so I can certainly empathize. I envy those people a lot.

maccard 4y ago

Chording requires synchroised keystrokes, and chaining chords can be awkward and error prone. It also puts unnecessary stress on your wrists, and not moving your hands for long periods of time in the name of efficiency is a sure fire way to end up with carpal tunnel syndrome. In almost 15 years of programming, I can't think of a single time where the marginal theoretical efficiency gains were worth more than being able to one handedly type in a TOTP code on a numpad while drinking coffee with my other hand, or my co workers being able to navigate on my computer for 5-10 minutes to show me something only they understand from 10 years ago that still has a "TODO talk to Jon" comment. > In most other standard computing tasks where you're primarily typing The only computing task where I'm primarily typing is when I'm practicing typing. When I'm actively writing code, I'm primarily thinking, planning, and transcribing. When I'm reading code, I'm semantically navigating. When I'm taking notes, writing documentation or responding to communication, again I'm not primarily typing I'm composing. As someone who can touch type to a proficient degree, the improvements I would get from increasing my keystrokes are marginal at best. The real wins are using tools that reduce the mental overhead of those tasks, e.g. when composing an email having automated spell checks fix my most common typos, when writing markdown having a live side by side preview, and when editing code having tools with semantic knowledge so that I can navigate mt code structurally, not as text. Those things give me orders of magnitudes of productivity increases.

least 4y ago
> Chording requires synchroised keystrokes, and chaining chords can be awkward and error prone. Chording itself is not all that difficult if your keyboard is set up for it. I think you'd be shocked at what opens source firmware like ZMK and QMK can accomplish. It does require you to recalibrate your mind. You use the "shift" key all the time. Using layers is doing the same, except you can make that layer key whatever you want and wherever you want. This is not more error prone than moving your hands from home row to press a function key. > It also puts unnecessary stress on your wrists, and not moving your hands for long periods of time in the name of efficiency is a sure fire way to end up with carpal tunnel syndrome. It does not add any additional stress on your wrists beyond what normal typing does. No one is suggesting you keep your hands stationary, they're suggesting you keep your keys close enough to you that you don't naturally end up contorting your wrists like you do on a standard layout keyboard. All staggered, nonstandard or otherwise layouts are not ergonomic. They force your fingers and your wrists to contort heavily with use. Whether or not this ends up affecting you depends largely on genetics. There are people twice my age still typing on full sized keyboards and have been their entire life and their hands are perfectly fine. For me personally, using an alternative layout with yes, chorded keys, has made it possible for me to continue typing at all. Also, you're not giving your wrists a break by moving your hand over to the function keys or to the navigation cluster. You do that with actual breaks and stretching. > The only computing task where I'm primarily typing is when I'm practicing typing. When I'm actively writing code, I'm primarily thinking, planning, and transcribing. When I'm reading code, I'm semantically navigating. When I'm taking notes, writing documentation or responding to communication, again I'm not primarily typing I'm composing. As someone who can touch type to a proficient degree, the improvements I would get from increasing my keystrokes are marginal at best. The real wins are using tools that reduce the mental overhead of those tasks, e.g. when composing an email having automated spell checks fix my most common typos, when writing markdown having a live side by side preview, and when editing code having tools with semantic knowledge so that I can navigate mt code structurally, not as text. Those things give me orders of magnitudes of productivity increases. Your argument boils down to you don't think your keyboard matters, in which case you arguing for keeping your full sized standard layout keyboard with a navigation cluster, function row, and number pad is completely moot. This is not the first time I've heard this argument; it's almost always the same one and it's always from obstinate people who've never actually tried anything else, because they're overly confident in their own opinion that their keyboard, the instrument they primarily use to interact with their computer, cannot be improved upon. It's almost zealous. If you are so certain that your keyboard plays such a minor role in your computing, then use something else. Use an on-screen keyboard that you have to click each key with a mouse, that is available on all major operating systems. It is, after all, such a minor and unimportant part of what you do on the computer, after all!