7 ms·

It could be a generational thing. I think people like me who started on DOS are more likely to want full keyboards, while the younger people are used to laptops

It could be a generational thing. I think people like me who started on DOS are more likely to want full keyboards, while the younger people are used to laptops and never became accustomed to using function keys. Also, when GUIs happened the function keys turned into a second class citizen as functionality was brought to the toolbar. Most kids never use F keys now because they never had to. For these younger people, the numpad and navigation keys are an impediment to reaching the mouse. For me it’s the opposite: the navigation keys is how I normally navigate (outside of vi controls) and the numpad is for numbers. The mouse is the input device of last resort.

kitsunesoba 4y ago
I think the platform one grew up on makes a difference too. People from a Mac background generally won't be as inclined towards F-keys, since Mac OS instead prefers mnemonic shortcuts (e.g. ⌘R instead of F5 for Refresh). This is the case for me. I grew up with Macs with full keyboards through the 90s and early 00s, but the Fkeys rarely got used and so they don't get much traffic from me now either.
aliqot 4y ago
I started on DOS and early Linux. F-keys absolutely make sense. I never incorporated home, end, page up/down into my flows. Essentially anything to the right of the arrow keys has no use in my life except SysRq and delete. The keyboards I liked best had the large backwards east asian mcnugget style enter key. These days I use an ergodox. Ortholinear is meh, but everything else about it is great.
least 4y ago
> For these younger people, the numpad and navigation keys are an impediment to reaching the mouse. For me it’s the opposite: the navigation keys is how I normally navigate (outside of vi controls) and the numpad is for numbers. The mouse is the input device of last resort. The mouse, the navigation cluster, and the number pad all require you to remove your hands from the home keys position in order to use them. Many of these smaller layout keyboards facilitate accessing these and the function keys under layers. I have several of these layer toggles on alpha keys, including the ones on the home row. The question then is does the chorded key offer more utility than a discrete physical one but requires you to move your arms away from home position? I think in many cases the answer is yes, it does, and it's not simply about aesthetics. It's more efficient keyboarding in most circumstances. Its weakness of course is in situations where accessing keys is time sensitive. The most obvious case where chording is strictly worse than discrete keys is gaming, where you need to be able to press various buttons quickly and often in very quick succession. In most other standard computing tasks where you're primarily typing, that isn't a meaningful consideration.
- anikom15 4y ago
  I’ve always found chords difficult. Doing lots of chords starts to strain after a while. I much prefer modal solutions and sensible use of navigation keys when the right hand isn’t doing much typing (my work is not just typing/programming, and I do a tremendous amount of number entry, so both the navigation cluster and numpad see a lot of use). I am a vim user after all. I’ve never liked chords as long as I can remember, so it seems more of a natural preference than a result of efficiency. I often get the various key combinations, but linear workflows are easy for me (e.g. :line number). In a sense, moving my hand to the navigation keys becomes ‘navigation mode’ and moving my hand to the numpad becomes ‘accounting mode’. I think I am also more sensitive to strain as I prefer trackballs over mice and trackpads. Laptops are particular rough for me. I can’t imagine sitting on a couch with just a Macbook Pro all day. Many of my colleagues are fine with that!
  - least 4y ago
    > I’ve always found chords difficult. Doing lots of chords starts to strain after a while. I agree that on a non-programmable, standard layout keyboard, chords are going to be uncomfortable. The most strain I use for chording currently is with the shift key, though. I can access the other layers and even modifiers on much easier to access keys. My keyboard also has a thumb cluster which vastly improves the chording experience. I can activate layers using my thumb so there is no additional strain on accessing them. For example, to access navigation arrows, I hold the "backspace" key down, which is a key on my left thumb cluster, and then press hjkl with my right hand. There's another layer that converts the right side of my keyboard into a number pad. I also have modifier keys sitting on my home row keys (shift, alt/option, cmd/super, ctrl has its own dedicated key in my left thumb cluster, though it also sits on the home row). What is the "caps lock" key on most keyboards serves as an "escape" key when tapped and when I hold it down it activates all four modifier keys, colloquially known as the "hyper" key, which I use for global shortcuts. There's a ton of functionality that makes using the computer itself easier and reduces the need to use the mouse. > I much prefer modal solutions and sensible use of navigation keys when the right hand isn’t doing much typing (my work is not just typing/programming, and I do a tremendous amount of number entry, so both the navigation cluster and numpad see a lot of use). I am a vim user after all. I've been using weird split keyboard layouts for a long time now. I don't do a ton of number entry. I think if you are then it does make sense to use a number pad, but I also think that the number of people that think they need a number pad is much greater than the number of people that actually do. Not suggesting that's the case for you, it's just been my personal observation. I would prefer a modal solution as well, but that would require a complete rethinking at the operating system level, which is more than I personally am capable of taking on. You can assign a key to toggle a layer in QMK/ZMK, though, so you could actually get that more closely analogs vim. But to create a very good experience, you'd need a keyboard that is talking to the computer and is aware of states all over the computer. > I think I am also more sensitive to strain as I prefer trackballs over mice and trackpads. Laptops are particular rough for me. I can’t imagine sitting on a couch with just a Macbook Pro all day. Many of my colleagues are fine with that! In my experience, ergonomics is more about balancing wear, like rotating tires, than it is to stop strain entirely. I like finger trackballs a lot, but thumb trackballs put too much strain in the wrong place. I can't sit on a couch and use a macbook pro at all, either, so I can certainly empathize. I envy those people a lot.

kitsunesoba 4y ago

I think the platform one grew up on makes a difference too. People from a Mac background generally won't be as inclined towards F-keys, since Mac OS instead prefers mnemonic shortcuts (e.g. ⌘R instead of F5 for Refresh). This is the case for me. I grew up with Macs with full keyboards through the 90s and early 00s, but the Fkeys rarely got used and so they don't get much traffic from me now either.

aliqot 4y ago

I started on DOS and early Linux. F-keys absolutely make sense. I never incorporated home, end, page up/down into my flows. Essentially anything to the right of the arrow keys has no use in my life except SysRq and delete. The keyboards I liked best had the large backwards east asian mcnugget style enter key. These days I use an ergodox. Ortholinear is meh, but everything else about it is great.

least 4y ago

> For these younger people, the numpad and navigation keys are an impediment to reaching the mouse. For me it’s the opposite: the navigation keys is how I normally navigate (outside of vi controls) and the numpad is for numbers. The mouse is the input device of last resort. The mouse, the navigation cluster, and the number pad all require you to remove your hands from the home keys position in order to use them. Many of these smaller layout keyboards facilitate accessing these and the function keys under layers. I have several of these layer toggles on alpha keys, including the ones on the home row. The question then is does the chorded key offer more utility than a discrete physical one but requires you to move your arms away from home position? I think in many cases the answer is yes, it does, and it's not simply about aesthetics. It's more efficient keyboarding in most circumstances. Its weakness of course is in situations where accessing keys is time sensitive. The most obvious case where chording is strictly worse than discrete keys is gaming, where you need to be able to press various buttons quickly and often in very quick succession. In most other standard computing tasks where you're primarily typing, that isn't a meaningful consideration.

anikom15 4y ago
I’ve always found chords difficult. Doing lots of chords starts to strain after a while. I much prefer modal solutions and sensible use of navigation keys when the right hand isn’t doing much typing (my work is not just typing/programming, and I do a tremendous amount of number entry, so both the navigation cluster and numpad see a lot of use). I am a vim user after all. I’ve never liked chords as long as I can remember, so it seems more of a natural preference than a result of efficiency. I often get the various key combinations, but linear workflows are easy for me (e.g. :line number). In a sense, moving my hand to the navigation keys becomes ‘navigation mode’ and moving my hand to the numpad becomes ‘accounting mode’. I think I am also more sensitive to strain as I prefer trackballs over mice and trackpads. Laptops are particular rough for me. I can’t imagine sitting on a couch with just a Macbook Pro all day. Many of my colleagues are fine with that!
- least 4y ago
  > I’ve always found chords difficult. Doing lots of chords starts to strain after a while. I agree that on a non-programmable, standard layout keyboard, chords are going to be uncomfortable. The most strain I use for chording currently is with the shift key, though. I can access the other layers and even modifiers on much easier to access keys. My keyboard also has a thumb cluster which vastly improves the chording experience. I can activate layers using my thumb so there is no additional strain on accessing them. For example, to access navigation arrows, I hold the "backspace" key down, which is a key on my left thumb cluster, and then press hjkl with my right hand. There's another layer that converts the right side of my keyboard into a number pad. I also have modifier keys sitting on my home row keys (shift, alt/option, cmd/super, ctrl has its own dedicated key in my left thumb cluster, though it also sits on the home row). What is the "caps lock" key on most keyboards serves as an "escape" key when tapped and when I hold it down it activates all four modifier keys, colloquially known as the "hyper" key, which I use for global shortcuts. There's a ton of functionality that makes using the computer itself easier and reduces the need to use the mouse. > I much prefer modal solutions and sensible use of navigation keys when the right hand isn’t doing much typing (my work is not just typing/programming, and I do a tremendous amount of number entry, so both the navigation cluster and numpad see a lot of use). I am a vim user after all. I've been using weird split keyboard layouts for a long time now. I don't do a ton of number entry. I think if you are then it does make sense to use a number pad, but I also think that the number of people that think they need a number pad is much greater than the number of people that actually do. Not suggesting that's the case for you, it's just been my personal observation. I would prefer a modal solution as well, but that would require a complete rethinking at the operating system level, which is more than I personally am capable of taking on. You can assign a key to toggle a layer in QMK/ZMK, though, so you could actually get that more closely analogs vim. But to create a very good experience, you'd need a keyboard that is talking to the computer and is aware of states all over the computer. > I think I am also more sensitive to strain as I prefer trackballs over mice and trackpads. Laptops are particular rough for me. I can’t imagine sitting on a couch with just a Macbook Pro all day. Many of my colleagues are fine with that! In my experience, ergonomics is more about balancing wear, like rotating tires, than it is to stop strain entirely. I like finger trackballs a lot, but thumb trackballs put too much strain in the wrong place. I can't sit on a couch and use a macbook pro at all, either, so I can certainly empathize. I envy those people a lot.