4 ms·

Medicine tends to neglect the first derivative due to the amount of complication that more rates introduces in making claims about the body, similar for impulse

Medicine tends to neglect the first derivative due to the amount of complication that more rates introduces in making claims about the body, similar for impulse or step response, studied here. The favored route is chemistry, cellular, genetic factors.

colechristensen 4y ago
It’s sort of the opposite. A doctor telling a patient to exercise has a very small effect size because the people who need to don’t actually do it regardless of what they’re told. Patients repeatedly told to eat less and exercise more get frustrated and offended and insist on other therapies.
- pmichaud 4y ago
  To be fair to those people, they probably, by and large, have no idea what to actually do. Starting from nothing, changing your diet to something healthy and learning how to be active at all is kind of huge, like maybe a university course or two worth of info to get started. I think many people who are open to change in spirit are just lost, and that’s before facing the uphill battle of habit change in general.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ralusek 4y ago
    I've never understood this argument. Go to anybody on the street from any neighborhood in any demographic and ask them: "In order to lose weight, should you eat more of: - Candy or Fruit? - Soda or Water? - Big Mac or Chicken Breast? - Hot Pockets or a Salad? - Fried Chicken or Grilled Chicken? etc... It's honestly so insulting when people say that people are unhealthy do to a lack of information. Not only is common sense enough to navigate you 80% there, the rest is a YouTube video away.
    - Folcon 4y ago
      This feels like a pretty uncharitable take, for a start sugar is pretty addictive and reducing / cutting it out of your life if you're used to having lots of it isn't easy. Secondly I vaguely recall the shift as a university student routinely eating take away to cooking for myself, it's not a trivial step, you have to pickup habits around shopping, meal planning and cooking. There's a lot of steps someone who's not used to doing it can drop off on. So yes, I can believe that people both know what are healthier options, but have no idea how to actually practically execute them in their life. It is deeply unhelpful to give people advice that they can't action and then expect them to thank you for it.
      - ralusek 4y ago
        The uncharitable take is assuming that a person can't make a salad.
  - hunter-gatherer 4y ago
    I also don't get this sentiment. It isn't a university course or two. That is ridiculous. Most healthy and in shape people haven't taken any formal courses in the matter. The information is mostly intuitive and the nuances that aren't have been incredibly easy to find for decades. This narrative is an excuse for a lack of discipline and accountability at best.
    - srcreigh 4y ago
      It is intuitive but there are so many ways to do it wrong, and the ways to do it wrong are often promoted as the best way to do it. In fact, I don’t know if physical exercise is actually taught correctly by any single person. Each teacher may help you in one way and (sometimes physically) hurt you in another. The only way to prevent that is to become an expert yourself. I’ve read about three books worth of information about weight lifting, stretching, massage. I’ve been to several massage therapists and physical therapists. I’ve had a personal trainer. I’ve consistently practiced being active, and even did sports when I was growing up. Despite all that, I still haven’t reached my simple fitness goal of not having muscular pain. Physical inactivity can be caused by injury. In that situation, both activity and inactivity can have serious negative consequences. Navigating someone of a situation like that isn’t something many health professionals are capable of doing, let alone random people. I’m 28, maybe you are still 22 and don’t know what the consequences of your training on an aging body are yet. Or maybe your legs aren’t uneven sized (as many peoples are) and you don’t have to deal with the consequences of that.
    - netmonk 4y ago
      I would say that habits, inherited patterns from environment shaping how we behave are far more important in our daily behaviour and outcome from them. As far as discipline and accountability can be solution to adress those issue, they also reinforce guilt and shame for all those struggling and failing on this path to solve their issue. And often is used as a survivor biais self glorification. Most if not all of your behaviour are directly or indirectly tied to your environment, and feedback from your environment. I myself struggled 30years being overweight, obese and ultra sedentary. Adopting a dog in my home, had more impact on all those issues than all coach/doctor/ and self discipline and accountability. The dog was a major cause of perturbation forcing me to adoption of new patterns and frame of decision. Most healthy and shape peoples are the one lucky enough to have been living in a very positive environment which they inherited. Mimétism is the most important way of transmitting behaviour pattern (and emotional reaction). Once you understand that, you can reshape your environment to improve, adapt the mimetic feedback to yourself.
- meltyness 4y ago
  Behavioral aspects are non-clinical, especially in the limit of psychiatry. We haven't yet developed medicines that can surgically implant the needs and goals to get individuals to put one foot in front of the other, with the skills and environment of an athlete, for example.

colechristensen 4y ago

It’s sort of the opposite. A doctor telling a patient to exercise has a very small effect size because the people who need to don’t actually do it regardless of what they’re told. Patients repeatedly told to eat less and exercise more get frustrated and offended and insist on other therapies.

pmichaud 4y ago
To be fair to those people, they probably, by and large, have no idea what to actually do. Starting from nothing, changing your diet to something healthy and learning how to be active at all is kind of huge, like maybe a university course or two worth of info to get started. I think many people who are open to change in spirit are just lost, and that’s before facing the uphill battle of habit change in general.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ralusek 4y ago
  I've never understood this argument. Go to anybody on the street from any neighborhood in any demographic and ask them: "In order to lose weight, should you eat more of: - Candy or Fruit? - Soda or Water? - Big Mac or Chicken Breast? - Hot Pockets or a Salad? - Fried Chicken or Grilled Chicken? etc... It's honestly so insulting when people say that people are unhealthy do to a lack of information. Not only is common sense enough to navigate you 80% there, the rest is a YouTube video away.
  - Folcon 4y ago
    This feels like a pretty uncharitable take, for a start sugar is pretty addictive and reducing / cutting it out of your life if you're used to having lots of it isn't easy. Secondly I vaguely recall the shift as a university student routinely eating take away to cooking for myself, it's not a trivial step, you have to pickup habits around shopping, meal planning and cooking. There's a lot of steps someone who's not used to doing it can drop off on. So yes, I can believe that people both know what are healthier options, but have no idea how to actually practically execute them in their life. It is deeply unhelpful to give people advice that they can't action and then expect them to thank you for it.
    - ralusek 4y ago
      The uncharitable take is assuming that a person can't make a salad.
- hunter-gatherer 4y ago
  I also don't get this sentiment. It isn't a university course or two. That is ridiculous. Most healthy and in shape people haven't taken any formal courses in the matter. The information is mostly intuitive and the nuances that aren't have been incredibly easy to find for decades. This narrative is an excuse for a lack of discipline and accountability at best.
  - srcreigh 4y ago
    It is intuitive but there are so many ways to do it wrong, and the ways to do it wrong are often promoted as the best way to do it. In fact, I don’t know if physical exercise is actually taught correctly by any single person. Each teacher may help you in one way and (sometimes physically) hurt you in another. The only way to prevent that is to become an expert yourself. I’ve read about three books worth of information about weight lifting, stretching, massage. I’ve been to several massage therapists and physical therapists. I’ve had a personal trainer. I’ve consistently practiced being active, and even did sports when I was growing up. Despite all that, I still haven’t reached my simple fitness goal of not having muscular pain. Physical inactivity can be caused by injury. In that situation, both activity and inactivity can have serious negative consequences. Navigating someone of a situation like that isn’t something many health professionals are capable of doing, let alone random people. I’m 28, maybe you are still 22 and don’t know what the consequences of your training on an aging body are yet. Or maybe your legs aren’t uneven sized (as many peoples are) and you don’t have to deal with the consequences of that.
  - netmonk 4y ago
    I would say that habits, inherited patterns from environment shaping how we behave are far more important in our daily behaviour and outcome from them. As far as discipline and accountability can be solution to adress those issue, they also reinforce guilt and shame for all those struggling and failing on this path to solve their issue. And often is used as a survivor biais self glorification. Most if not all of your behaviour are directly or indirectly tied to your environment, and feedback from your environment. I myself struggled 30years being overweight, obese and ultra sedentary. Adopting a dog in my home, had more impact on all those issues than all coach/doctor/ and self discipline and accountability. The dog was a major cause of perturbation forcing me to adoption of new patterns and frame of decision. Most healthy and shape peoples are the one lucky enough to have been living in a very positive environment which they inherited. Mimétism is the most important way of transmitting behaviour pattern (and emotional reaction). Once you understand that, you can reshape your environment to improve, adapt the mimetic feedback to yourself.
meltyness 4y ago
Behavioral aspects are non-clinical, especially in the limit of psychiatry. We haven't yet developed medicines that can surgically implant the needs and goals to get individuals to put one foot in front of the other, with the skills and environment of an athlete, for example.