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Begging the question is when you conclude one of your assumptions. “That it’s intrinsically rewarding” is a finding not an assumption. The study was definitely

Begging the question is when you conclude one of your assumptions. “That it’s intrinsically rewarding” is a finding not an assumption. The study was definitely influenced by the popular notion of saving the bees, but that’s not a problem! I’d rather read about bees having fun than any other insect! I hope others feel the same and a friendlier sentiment towards bees (because of the study, a little bit) helps the whole problem.

nescioquid 4y ago
They said that because there's no apparent reason for the behavior, it must be "intrinsically rewarding". Is that really a proven conclusion, or a working premise? It's listed on equal footing with the observation that bees don't engage in the behavior under stress (also a finding). The later can be observed, while the former seems to need access to the inner experience of the organism.
- comfypotato 4y ago
  You sound interested enough that you might enjoy bits of the actual paper [1]. They didn’t exactly say the bees stopped playing under stress. Instead they said the behavior isn’t a stress response (they know this because they eliminated stress from the environment). Also, the evidence that it’s inherently rewarding is bolstered by the pattern of interaction with balls. It increases over time and then drops (typical of play), and it is unrelated to mate/food finding. It’s very difficult to know what animals are thinking. The scientists say multiple times in different ways that none of this is conclusive (the longest section regarding knowing the behavior isn’t function-related). That being said, it’s a well designed experiment in my opinion. I think they did a good job of setting it up so that we can conclude: “why else would they roll the balls?” 1. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Samadi-Galpayage/publication/364433874_Do_bumble_bees_play/links/635abaf16e0d367d91d13cca/Do-bumble-bees-play.pdf?origin=publication_detail https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Samadi-Galpayage/public...
  - nescioquid 4y ago
    Okay -- thanks for being patient; appreciate the link to the paper and additional detail. I see the "question begging" emerged from me misconstruing the quotes from the paper above. I think I was especially skeptical because I wanted to believe the conclusion.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
stevenwoo 4y ago
A professor from the same university (don't see his name listed for this study) wrote a book about bees https://press.princeton.edu/books/ebook/9780691236247/the-mind-of-a-bee https://press.princeton.edu/books/ebook/9780691236247/the-mi..., here's an article about it. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/16/bees-are-really-highly-intelligent-the-insect-iq-tests-causing-a-buzz-among-scientists https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/16/bees-are...

nescioquid 4y ago

They said that because there's no apparent reason for the behavior, it must be "intrinsically rewarding". Is that really a proven conclusion, or a working premise? It's listed on equal footing with the observation that bees don't engage in the behavior under stress (also a finding). The later can be observed, while the former seems to need access to the inner experience of the organism.

comfypotato 4y ago
You sound interested enough that you might enjoy bits of the actual paper [1]. They didn’t exactly say the bees stopped playing under stress. Instead they said the behavior isn’t a stress response (they know this because they eliminated stress from the environment). Also, the evidence that it’s inherently rewarding is bolstered by the pattern of interaction with balls. It increases over time and then drops (typical of play), and it is unrelated to mate/food finding. It’s very difficult to know what animals are thinking. The scientists say multiple times in different ways that none of this is conclusive (the longest section regarding knowing the behavior isn’t function-related). That being said, it’s a well designed experiment in my opinion. I think they did a good job of setting it up so that we can conclude: “why else would they roll the balls?” 1. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Samadi-Galpayage/publication/364433874_Do_bumble_bees_play/links/635abaf16e0d367d91d13cca/Do-bumble-bees-play.pdf?origin=publication_detail https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Samadi-Galpayage/public...
- nescioquid 4y ago
  Okay -- thanks for being patient; appreciate the link to the paper and additional detail. I see the "question begging" emerged from me misconstruing the quotes from the paper above. I think I was especially skeptical because I wanted to believe the conclusion.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

stevenwoo 4y ago

A professor from the same university (don't see his name listed for this study) wrote a book about bees https://press.princeton.edu/books/ebook/9780691236247/the-mind-of-a-bee https://press.princeton.edu/books/ebook/9780691236247/the-mi..., here's an article about it. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/16/bees-are-really-highly-intelligent-the-insect-iq-tests-causing-a-buzz-among-scientists https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/16/bees-are...