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From the original study: > We found that ball rolling (1) did not contribute to immediate survival strategies, (2) was intrinsically rewarding, (3) differed fr

by chomp 4y ago

From the original study: > We found that ball rolling (1) did not contribute to immediate survival strategies, (2) was intrinsically rewarding, (3) differed from functional behaviour in form, (4) was repeated but not stereotyped, and (5) was initiated under stress-free conditions. ... > We suggest that the behaviour observed here has actual hedonic value for bumble bees, which adds to the growing body of evidence of a form of sentience in these insects

nescioquid 4y ago
The researches adduce from those five findings that ball-rolling holds hedonic value for bumble bees. One of those findings was that ball-rolling is "intrinsically rewarding" to a bee. Isn't this what you call "begging the question"? It's hedonic because it is intrinsically rewarding. The article ends with the quote: "We are producing ever-increasing amounts of evidence backing up the need to do all we can to protect insects that are a million miles from the mindless, unfeeling creatures they are traditionally believed to be." It gives me the impression the findings are driven by the agenda to save the bees. Which makes me feel conflicted since I support the aim and have lay interests in philosophy of mind.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- comfypotato 4y ago
  Begging the question is when you conclude one of your assumptions. “That it’s intrinsically rewarding” is a finding not an assumption. The study was definitely influenced by the popular notion of saving the bees, but that’s not a problem! I’d rather read about bees having fun than any other insect! I hope others feel the same and a friendlier sentiment towards bees (because of the study, a little bit) helps the whole problem.
  - nescioquid 4y ago
    They said that because there's no apparent reason for the behavior, it must be "intrinsically rewarding". Is that really a proven conclusion, or a working premise? It's listed on equal footing with the observation that bees don't engage in the behavior under stress (also a finding). The later can be observed, while the former seems to need access to the inner experience of the organism.
    - comfypotato 4y ago
      You sound interested enough that you might enjoy bits of the actual paper [1]. They didn’t exactly say the bees stopped playing under stress. Instead they said the behavior isn’t a stress response (they know this because they eliminated stress from the environment). Also, the evidence that it’s inherently rewarding is bolstered by the pattern of interaction with balls. It increases over time and then drops (typical of play), and it is unrelated to mate/food finding. It’s very difficult to know what animals are thinking. The scientists say multiple times in different ways that none of this is conclusive (the longest section regarding knowing the behavior isn’t function-related). That being said, it’s a well designed experiment in my opinion. I think they did a good job of setting it up so that we can conclude: “why else would they roll the balls?” 1. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Samadi-Galpayage/publication/364433874_Do_bumble_bees_play/links/635abaf16e0d367d91d13cca/Do-bumble-bees-play.pdf?origin=publication_detail https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Samadi-Galpayage/public...
      - nescioquid 4y ago
        Okay -- thanks for being patient; appreciate the link to the paper and additional detail. I see the "question begging" emerged from me misconstruing the quotes from the paper above. I think I was especially skeptical because I wanted to believe the conclusion.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - stevenwoo 4y ago
    A professor from the same university (don't see his name listed for this study) wrote a book about bees https://press.princeton.edu/books/ebook/9780691236247/the-mind-of-a-bee https://press.princeton.edu/books/ebook/9780691236247/the-mi..., here's an article about it. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/16/bees-are-really-highly-intelligent-the-insect-iq-tests-causing-a-buzz-among-scientists https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/16/bees-are...
- Sharlin 4y ago
  > Isn't this what you call "begging the question"? It's hedonic because it is intrinsically rewarding. I think what they mean is that it was not connected to an external reward (at least not one that the researchers could identify). For example, they did not train the bees to roll the ball in order to get sugar water or something.
- LegitShady 4y ago
  I guess the question is how you would describe something like listening to music for a human. It would be 'intrinsically rewarding' and 'hedonic'. Why? because of our brain structures? Hard to say.
pvaldes 4y ago
Sometimes things are not what they seem. We know that dolphins smiling are being aggressive for example. > "Bumblebees play because we humans think that they play" Or maybe they are just brain-wired to explore any strange object and instinctively clean any movable peeble, fruit, and object in the path of the entry of the colony. Cleaning the colony is a very common behavior reported in bees "We observed the pleasure centers in the brain activated in a scanner" is not the same as "we think that the pleasure centers in the brain activate because the bumblebee seems happy". One is an objective claim, the other subjective (and looks like designed to sell animism 2.0 and happy feelings). Subjective and tainted by the positive image that we had from bumblebees. Try to sell "happy spiders play football with fly heads" for example and everybody will conclude that spiders are the worst

by chomp 4y ago

nescioquid 4y ago

The researches adduce from those five findings that ball-rolling holds hedonic value for bumble bees. One of those findings was that ball-rolling is "intrinsically rewarding" to a bee. Isn't this what you call "begging the question"? It's hedonic because it is intrinsically rewarding. The article ends with the quote: "We are producing ever-increasing amounts of evidence backing up the need to do all we can to protect insects that are a million miles from the mindless, unfeeling creatures they are traditionally believed to be." It gives me the impression the findings are driven by the agenda to save the bees. Which makes me feel conflicted since I support the aim and have lay interests in philosophy of mind.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
comfypotato 4y ago
Begging the question is when you conclude one of your assumptions. “That it’s intrinsically rewarding” is a finding not an assumption. The study was definitely influenced by the popular notion of saving the bees, but that’s not a problem! I’d rather read about bees having fun than any other insect! I hope others feel the same and a friendlier sentiment towards bees (because of the study, a little bit) helps the whole problem.
- nescioquid 4y ago
  They said that because there's no apparent reason for the behavior, it must be "intrinsically rewarding". Is that really a proven conclusion, or a working premise? It's listed on equal footing with the observation that bees don't engage in the behavior under stress (also a finding). The later can be observed, while the former seems to need access to the inner experience of the organism.
  - comfypotato 4y ago
    You sound interested enough that you might enjoy bits of the actual paper [1]. They didn’t exactly say the bees stopped playing under stress. Instead they said the behavior isn’t a stress response (they know this because they eliminated stress from the environment). Also, the evidence that it’s inherently rewarding is bolstered by the pattern of interaction with balls. It increases over time and then drops (typical of play), and it is unrelated to mate/food finding. It’s very difficult to know what animals are thinking. The scientists say multiple times in different ways that none of this is conclusive (the longest section regarding knowing the behavior isn’t function-related). That being said, it’s a well designed experiment in my opinion. I think they did a good job of setting it up so that we can conclude: “why else would they roll the balls?” 1. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Samadi-Galpayage/publication/364433874_Do_bumble_bees_play/links/635abaf16e0d367d91d13cca/Do-bumble-bees-play.pdf?origin=publication_detail https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Samadi-Galpayage/public...
    - nescioquid 4y ago
      Okay -- thanks for being patient; appreciate the link to the paper and additional detail. I see the "question begging" emerged from me misconstruing the quotes from the paper above. I think I was especially skeptical because I wanted to believe the conclusion.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- stevenwoo 4y ago
  A professor from the same university (don't see his name listed for this study) wrote a book about bees https://press.princeton.edu/books/ebook/9780691236247/the-mind-of-a-bee https://press.princeton.edu/books/ebook/9780691236247/the-mi..., here's an article about it. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/16/bees-are-really-highly-intelligent-the-insect-iq-tests-causing-a-buzz-among-scientists https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/16/bees-are...
Sharlin 4y ago
> Isn't this what you call "begging the question"? It's hedonic because it is intrinsically rewarding. I think what they mean is that it was not connected to an external reward (at least not one that the researchers could identify). For example, they did not train the bees to roll the ball in order to get sugar water or something.
LegitShady 4y ago
I guess the question is how you would describe something like listening to music for a human. It would be 'intrinsically rewarding' and 'hedonic'. Why? because of our brain structures? Hard to say.

pvaldes 4y ago

Sometimes things are not what they seem. We know that dolphins smiling are being aggressive for example. > "Bumblebees play because we humans think that they play" Or maybe they are just brain-wired to explore any strange object and instinctively clean any movable peeble, fruit, and object in the path of the entry of the colony. Cleaning the colony is a very common behavior reported in bees "We observed the pleasure centers in the brain activated in a scanner" is not the same as "we think that the pleasure centers in the brain activate because the bumblebee seems happy". One is an objective claim, the other subjective (and looks like designed to sell animism 2.0 and happy feelings). Subjective and tainted by the positive image that we had from bumblebees. Try to sell "happy spiders play football with fly heads" for example and everybody will conclude that spiders are the worst