20 ms·

Unless he's transgender, he can't be deadnamed. There isn't a moral contradiction to explain. The entire point of deadnaming someone is to cause them harm. Ful

by cmh89 4y ago

Unless he's transgender, he can't be deadnamed. There isn't a moral contradiction to explain. The entire point of deadnaming someone is to cause them harm. Full stop. No one is trying to cause Ye harm by clarifying that he used to be called Kayne West. If you want a non-trans equivalent, old racists used to insist on calling Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Muhammad Ali by names they had rejected to make a point about how little they thought of them. Just like people deadname Elliot Page solely to hateful and offensive. Can you really not tell the difference?

adamrezich 4y ago
> If you want a non-trans equivalent, old racists used to insist on calling Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Muhammad Ali by names they had rejected to make a point about how little they thought of them. exactly, so how is this any different? a black man legally changes his name because he considers his old name to be his "slave name", and almost every headline about him refuses to acknowledge this change. how is this different from Muhammad Ali? > Unless he's transgender, he can't be deadnamed. this is the crux of my question: why is "right to not be deadnamed" exclusively a trans "right"? what would make you think that?
- cmh89 4y ago
  >exactly, so how is this any different? a black man legally changes his name because he considers his old name to be his "slave name", and almost every headline about him refuses to acknowledge this change. how is this different from Muhammad Ali? I'm not sure what this paragraph is trying to convey. Are you under the impression that Ye changed his name because it was his 'slave name'? >this is the crux of my question: why is "right to not be deadnamed" exclusively a trans "right"? what would make you think that? I'm not sure why the word "right" is being used here, but I "think that' because words having meaning in the English language and deadnaming by definition is when you "call (a transgender person) by their birth name when they have changed their name as part of their gender transition." https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deadname https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deadnam...
  - adamrezich 4y ago
    a kid down the street from the house I grew up in moved to Hollywood to get involved in acting and changed his name but not his gender. he asked everyone to refer to him by his new name instead of his old one. how is this functionally different from someone changing their gender and their name at the same time, with regards to the name change? it doesn't matter why someone wants to change their name, they want to change their name, you should respect that. you don't have to, of course, you can do whatever you want. but the idea that trans people get a special when-I-change-my-name-you-have-to-respect-it privilege that people who don't want to change their gender don't get access to, is completely nonsensical. you should respect the right to identity self-determination innate to all people, for whatever reason they choose, or else your moral framework is not actually cohesive at all and in fact permits granting special privileges to certain classes of people over others, which is generally understood to be bigoted, by definition. every headline and social media post I see that contains the string "Kanye" or "Kanye West", outside of those who couch it in the context of some variation of "Ye, the artist formerly known as Kanye West", proves that, despite all pretenses to the contrary, there is in fact a brazen double standard when it comes to asserting one's own identity in terms of LEGALLY changing their name, and having everyone else respect it, such that trans people are supposed to get special consideration in this regard compared to everyone else, somehow. only extremely convoluted contemporary political pseudo-logic could explain how this actually makes perfect sense, how it's okay to call him Kanye West but it's not okay to call him Ellen Page, and how those two things are Actually Completely Different Situations instead of Exactly The Same Thing. > Are you under the impression that Ye changed his name because it was his 'slave name'? the man has openly said as much; does his own position on his own identity not have any value to you? is that not the entire idea behind the concept of "deadnaming" to begin with?
    - hairofadog 4y ago
      I'm not the person you replied to, but of course people should respect Ye's name change. I expect in many cases it's simply laziness, though I do think there's some slack to be granted where a reporter may use "Ye, formerly known as Kanye West", because people may not know or understand what happened, and the point is to clarify. If a news source were to say "Elliot Page, formerly Ellen Page", I think that's fine too. (Only sorta related, but a while back Cardi B amused people, including me, by noting how much Donald Glover and Childish Gambino looked alike.) Anyhoo, the Bee wasn't accidentally calling someone by the wrong name; they were intentionally doing it to bother the person, which is asshole behavior. It is also when people do it to Ye, and if the kid in your neighborhood had changed his name to from Karl to Brett, and some other kid always ran around saying, "Hey look, it's Karl. Where are you going, Karl?" I'd say that also qualifies as asshole behavior. Even so, asshole behavior should be allowed, if discouraged. The problem is that the Bee was using their reach and audience to blast a specific trans person, publicly, with the goal of belittling and ostracizing all trans people, who generally already face harassment from society. This would be problematic beyond the simple question of manners whether the target is trans people, Kanye, or Brett.

by cmh89 4y ago

adamrezich 4y ago

> If you want a non-trans equivalent, old racists used to insist on calling Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Muhammad Ali by names they had rejected to make a point about how little they thought of them. exactly, so how is this any different? a black man legally changes his name because he considers his old name to be his "slave name", and almost every headline about him refuses to acknowledge this change. how is this different from Muhammad Ali? > Unless he's transgender, he can't be deadnamed. this is the crux of my question: why is "right to not be deadnamed" exclusively a trans "right"? what would make you think that?

cmh89 4y ago
>exactly, so how is this any different? a black man legally changes his name because he considers his old name to be his "slave name", and almost every headline about him refuses to acknowledge this change. how is this different from Muhammad Ali? I'm not sure what this paragraph is trying to convey. Are you under the impression that Ye changed his name because it was his 'slave name'? >this is the crux of my question: why is "right to not be deadnamed" exclusively a trans "right"? what would make you think that? I'm not sure why the word "right" is being used here, but I "think that' because words having meaning in the English language and deadnaming by definition is when you "call (a transgender person) by their birth name when they have changed their name as part of their gender transition." https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deadname https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deadnam...
- adamrezich 4y ago
  a kid down the street from the house I grew up in moved to Hollywood to get involved in acting and changed his name but not his gender. he asked everyone to refer to him by his new name instead of his old one. how is this functionally different from someone changing their gender and their name at the same time, with regards to the name change? it doesn't matter why someone wants to change their name, they want to change their name, you should respect that. you don't have to, of course, you can do whatever you want. but the idea that trans people get a special when-I-change-my-name-you-have-to-respect-it privilege that people who don't want to change their gender don't get access to, is completely nonsensical. you should respect the right to identity self-determination innate to all people, for whatever reason they choose, or else your moral framework is not actually cohesive at all and in fact permits granting special privileges to certain classes of people over others, which is generally understood to be bigoted, by definition. every headline and social media post I see that contains the string "Kanye" or "Kanye West", outside of those who couch it in the context of some variation of "Ye, the artist formerly known as Kanye West", proves that, despite all pretenses to the contrary, there is in fact a brazen double standard when it comes to asserting one's own identity in terms of LEGALLY changing their name, and having everyone else respect it, such that trans people are supposed to get special consideration in this regard compared to everyone else, somehow. only extremely convoluted contemporary political pseudo-logic could explain how this actually makes perfect sense, how it's okay to call him Kanye West but it's not okay to call him Ellen Page, and how those two things are Actually Completely Different Situations instead of Exactly The Same Thing. > Are you under the impression that Ye changed his name because it was his 'slave name'? the man has openly said as much; does his own position on his own identity not have any value to you? is that not the entire idea behind the concept of "deadnaming" to begin with?
  - hairofadog 4y ago
    I'm not the person you replied to, but of course people should respect Ye's name change. I expect in many cases it's simply laziness, though I do think there's some slack to be granted where a reporter may use "Ye, formerly known as Kanye West", because people may not know or understand what happened, and the point is to clarify. If a news source were to say "Elliot Page, formerly Ellen Page", I think that's fine too. (Only sorta related, but a while back Cardi B amused people, including me, by noting how much Donald Glover and Childish Gambino looked alike.) Anyhoo, the Bee wasn't accidentally calling someone by the wrong name; they were intentionally doing it to bother the person, which is asshole behavior. It is also when people do it to Ye, and if the kid in your neighborhood had changed his name to from Karl to Brett, and some other kid always ran around saying, "Hey look, it's Karl. Where are you going, Karl?" I'd say that also qualifies as asshole behavior. Even so, asshole behavior should be allowed, if discouraged. The problem is that the Bee was using their reach and audience to blast a specific trans person, publicly, with the goal of belittling and ostracizing all trans people, who generally already face harassment from society. This would be problematic beyond the simple question of manners whether the target is trans people, Kanye, or Brett.