4 ms·

They did it because of her accomplishments, not for being a transgender woman. There is an important difference. I understand the satire on some level, she was

They did it because of her accomplishments, not for being a transgender woman. There is an important difference. I understand the satire on some level, she was a man, she only transitioned later in her life, so of course there is always a question of whether you have to be born a woman to be a woman, did these people born into the wrong body, can someone be a woman if you find her look uncanny and so on. There is a lot to work with here. What I don't understand is the malice, the cultural war insisting that she is a man, which means that she shouldn't be allowed to be a woman, no matter what. In fact conservatives often go the length and argue against the very existence of transgender people, offering violence as a solution.

dudeDDRrulez 4y ago
[flagged]
_-david-_ 4y ago
> In fact conservatives often go the length and argue against the very existence of transgender people, offering violence as a solution. This is just factually incorrect. Nobody denies people exist that identify as trans. Some people deny the identity is accurate, but no major conservatives are denying gender dysphoria is a thing. Are you seriously suggesting denying a self identity is denying the existence of that person? Conservatives also are not calling for violence against trans people. Please stop with this rhetoric. You are acting like the conservatives of your imagination that you are bashing.
- Comevius 4y ago
  I'm seriously suggesting that denying someone's place in society is denying their existence, yes. Conservative government officials, media commentators and militias are regularly attacking transgender people with real-life consequences. It's not just legislative attacks and information campaigns, but harassment and violent attacks. It's a culture of hate, and there is no excuse for it, and it should be called out.
  - _-david-_ 4y ago
    >I'm seriously suggesting that denying someone's place in society is denying their existence, yes. What do you mean denying someone's place in society? Are there are bunch of conservatives denying jobs to trans people or something? You are being too hyperbolic. >Conservative government officials, media commentators and militias are regularly attacking transgender people with real-life consequences. It's not just legislative attacks and information campaigns, but harassment and violent attacks. Please show me conservatives physically attacking or advocating for the physical attacks against trans people. Harassment is more of a subjective thing. Some people think the Babylon Bee's satire is harassment. I don't think it is. I also don't see any genuine harassment. Please provide examples. >It's a culture of hate, and there is no excuse for it, and it should be called out. I have yet to see any hate. Please show me some examples.
    - Comevius 4y ago
      Source: the entire conservative media from Fox News to Breitbart, social media, the paper below comparing left-wing, right-wing and Islamist political violence, anti-LGBTQ violence and attacks on pride festivals, anti-abortion violence, shooting sprees, bombings, the Capitol attack, MAGA Republicans and Trump himself, QAnon, white supremacists, militias, incels. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119 https://www.adl.org/research-centers/center-on-extremism https://www.adl.org/research-centers/center-on-extremism https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/01/05/assessing-the-right-wing-terror-threat-in-the-united-states-a-year-after-the-january-6-insurrection/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/01/05/a... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence Causal racism + transphobia + xenophobia + scientific illiteracy + the impact font = conservative memes https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRightCantMeme/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRightCantMeme/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communiti... > I have yet to see any hate. You have, it's everywhere. Just drop in any of these words (gender study, transgender, sea level rise, climate change, sustainable development, liberal, Democrat, socialism, feminism, globalism, women's rights, representation, diversity, science, education, racial justice, critical race theory, mainstream media, vaccine, Hunter Biden, George Soros) as a bait to anywhere on conservative spaces and watch the hate flow.
Mezzie 4y ago
I have no problem with trans people, but making someone like Rachel Levine woman of the year on the basis of her accomplishments does ignore something important. Namely that a lot of the 'woman of the X' awards are meant to inspire or encourage women in fields they are discouraged from, and that having been perceived as a male for a lot of her career meant that Levine didn't experience early career sexism and that some of her accomplishments may not have been possible for a cis woman. My mother is about Levine's age, and she wasn't allowed to go to college for what she wanted because it wasn't appropriate for girls (engineering). If the only way you can succeed as a woman/the only way you can get accolades is to be perceived as male for most of your career, that is DISCOURAGING, not ENCOURAGING. I feel similarly about Caitlyn Jenner's awards. Whereas it would be perfectly appropriate to give such an award to a woman who transitioned earlier and would have faced similar difficulties in career progression as cis women. ETA: This also differs by generation. Levine and Jenner's generation denied a lot of opportunities to AFAB people. Excluding cis women who are now in their 60s from science growing up and then celebrating woman scientists who were only/partially allowed the career because they were in the closet is...odd.
- Comevius 4y ago
  The question is whether a wrong (discrimination of women) can be fixed with another wrong (discrimination of transgender women) or should we just do what's right in the first place. The entire point is that we shouldn't build artificial obstacles anymore. The conservatives are obsessed with who's what color and gender, what they are doing in the bedroom or in the hospital, but we don't have to. None of this should matter, not for an engineering job, not for anything. The entire cultural war is completely pointless. Conservatives say that they are doing it for the sanctity of the family and normalcy, just like Putin is saying that he is doing it to protect Russia.
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    Going forward, you're absolutely correct. I would have fewer objections to a Gen Z trans woman being woman of the year in 20-30 years, because odds are she could have transitioned young enough to be subject to sexism in her career and therefore yes, we should celebrate her overcoming that obstacle, just as we would a cis woman. Also I have no problem with trans women receiving awards where they didn't have advantages for being AMAB. > None of this should matter, not for an engineering job, not for anything. It does now, though, and it has for the majority of the lives of people under the age of 20-25. Cis women Levine's age HAVE experienced oppression. Erasing that is also bad. Trans rights (and queer rights in general) have progressed quickly enough that this change has happened within one lifetime, so things get a bit weird. I've seen something similarly in gay spaces, actually, as a cis lesbian. Younger people seem to think that those of us who were old enough to live in an openly homophobic society should just...stop being affected by that. It doesn't work that way. > The entire cultural war is completely pointless. I mean, I agree, but I can't talk to other lesbians without trans women being the center of discussion so. Now we get trolling from everybody. It's exhausting.

dudeDDRrulez 4y ago

[flagged]

_-david-_ 4y ago

> In fact conservatives often go the length and argue against the very existence of transgender people, offering violence as a solution. This is just factually incorrect. Nobody denies people exist that identify as trans. Some people deny the identity is accurate, but no major conservatives are denying gender dysphoria is a thing. Are you seriously suggesting denying a self identity is denying the existence of that person? Conservatives also are not calling for violence against trans people. Please stop with this rhetoric. You are acting like the conservatives of your imagination that you are bashing.

Comevius 4y ago
I'm seriously suggesting that denying someone's place in society is denying their existence, yes. Conservative government officials, media commentators and militias are regularly attacking transgender people with real-life consequences. It's not just legislative attacks and information campaigns, but harassment and violent attacks. It's a culture of hate, and there is no excuse for it, and it should be called out.
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  >I'm seriously suggesting that denying someone's place in society is denying their existence, yes. What do you mean denying someone's place in society? Are there are bunch of conservatives denying jobs to trans people or something? You are being too hyperbolic. >Conservative government officials, media commentators and militias are regularly attacking transgender people with real-life consequences. It's not just legislative attacks and information campaigns, but harassment and violent attacks. Please show me conservatives physically attacking or advocating for the physical attacks against trans people. Harassment is more of a subjective thing. Some people think the Babylon Bee's satire is harassment. I don't think it is. I also don't see any genuine harassment. Please provide examples. >It's a culture of hate, and there is no excuse for it, and it should be called out. I have yet to see any hate. Please show me some examples.
  - Comevius 4y ago
    Source: the entire conservative media from Fox News to Breitbart, social media, the paper below comparing left-wing, right-wing and Islamist political violence, anti-LGBTQ violence and attacks on pride festivals, anti-abortion violence, shooting sprees, bombings, the Capitol attack, MAGA Republicans and Trump himself, QAnon, white supremacists, militias, incels. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119 https://www.adl.org/research-centers/center-on-extremism https://www.adl.org/research-centers/center-on-extremism https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/01/05/assessing-the-right-wing-terror-threat-in-the-united-states-a-year-after-the-january-6-insurrection/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/01/05/a... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence Causal racism + transphobia + xenophobia + scientific illiteracy + the impact font = conservative memes https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRightCantMeme/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRightCantMeme/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communiti... > I have yet to see any hate. You have, it's everywhere. Just drop in any of these words (gender study, transgender, sea level rise, climate change, sustainable development, liberal, Democrat, socialism, feminism, globalism, women's rights, representation, diversity, science, education, racial justice, critical race theory, mainstream media, vaccine, Hunter Biden, George Soros) as a bait to anywhere on conservative spaces and watch the hate flow.

Mezzie 4y ago

I have no problem with trans people, but making someone like Rachel Levine woman of the year on the basis of her accomplishments does ignore something important. Namely that a lot of the 'woman of the X' awards are meant to inspire or encourage women in fields they are discouraged from, and that having been perceived as a male for a lot of her career meant that Levine didn't experience early career sexism and that some of her accomplishments may not have been possible for a cis woman. My mother is about Levine's age, and she wasn't allowed to go to college for what she wanted because it wasn't appropriate for girls (engineering). If the only way you can succeed as a woman/the only way you can get accolades is to be perceived as male for most of your career, that is DISCOURAGING, not ENCOURAGING. I feel similarly about Caitlyn Jenner's awards. Whereas it would be perfectly appropriate to give such an award to a woman who transitioned earlier and would have faced similar difficulties in career progression as cis women. ETA: This also differs by generation. Levine and Jenner's generation denied a lot of opportunities to AFAB people. Excluding cis women who are now in their 60s from science growing up and then celebrating woman scientists who were only/partially allowed the career because they were in the closet is...odd.

Comevius 4y ago
The question is whether a wrong (discrimination of women) can be fixed with another wrong (discrimination of transgender women) or should we just do what's right in the first place. The entire point is that we shouldn't build artificial obstacles anymore. The conservatives are obsessed with who's what color and gender, what they are doing in the bedroom or in the hospital, but we don't have to. None of this should matter, not for an engineering job, not for anything. The entire cultural war is completely pointless. Conservatives say that they are doing it for the sanctity of the family and normalcy, just like Putin is saying that he is doing it to protect Russia.
- Mezzie 4y ago
  Going forward, you're absolutely correct. I would have fewer objections to a Gen Z trans woman being woman of the year in 20-30 years, because odds are she could have transitioned young enough to be subject to sexism in her career and therefore yes, we should celebrate her overcoming that obstacle, just as we would a cis woman. Also I have no problem with trans women receiving awards where they didn't have advantages for being AMAB. > None of this should matter, not for an engineering job, not for anything. It does now, though, and it has for the majority of the lives of people under the age of 20-25. Cis women Levine's age HAVE experienced oppression. Erasing that is also bad. Trans rights (and queer rights in general) have progressed quickly enough that this change has happened within one lifetime, so things get a bit weird. I've seen something similarly in gay spaces, actually, as a cis lesbian. Younger people seem to think that those of us who were old enough to live in an openly homophobic society should just...stop being affected by that. It doesn't work that way. > The entire cultural war is completely pointless. I mean, I agree, but I can't talk to other lesbians without trans women being the center of discussion so. Now we get trolling from everybody. It's exhausting.