5 ms·

> We have sent experts to the relevant tax offices etc, but the ONLY guy who can handle it is never there, refuses to deal with it, then says we need to go some

by soperj 4y ago

> We have sent experts to the relevant tax offices etc, but the ONLY guy who can handle it is never there, refuses to deal with it, then says we need to go somewhere else - where we are sent back etc etc. Sent around in circles, basically - with everybody recognizing the money is in fact owed... That sounds exactly like they're needing a bribe, but you're too rooted in western ways of doing things that you don't realize it.

cafard 4y ago
US citizens bribing foreign officials can be convicted of a felony under (I think it is) The Foreign Corrupt Practices act. Whether DOJ chases down three-developer scale stuff, or has only the staff for multi-zillion class bribes, I don't know.
- stefan_ 4y ago
  Paying an official to do something they were going to do (eventually) anyway does not qualify as a bribe.
  - ninju 4y ago
    citation please :-) To me...if I have to pay someone to do their assigned job it seems like a bribe to me https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bribe https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bribe (using money to affect the conduct of a person)
    - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
      >citation please :-) 15 U.S. Code § 78dd–1(b)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - coredog64 4y ago
    Maybe. From the multitude of FCPA training I’ve had to endure, you can pay to have processing expedited if there is an official policy for it. You cannot pay $1K to the head of the office because he hints that it will speed things up. Technically, you’re not even protected if you hire a local agent to do all of this for you.
  - VBprogrammer 4y ago
    Jesus. Please no one take that as legal advice. Paying a bribe to get preferential treatment (even if that treatment is just to get the person to do their actual job) is a bribe none the less.
    - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
      Paying an official to perform their job (perform a "routine governmental action") is a facilitating payment and is an exemption from the prohibitions of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/78dd-1 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/78dd-1 The point with a facilitating payment is that you've done everything that's actually required by law to e.g. get a business license and the official is still giving you the run-around, you are allowed to pay them. It doesn't apply in cases that relate to paying decision makers for contracts, for example. If you're thinking about doing this, you should absolutely consult a lawyer, but the post above is wrong on the general construction of the law.
      - VBprogrammer 4y ago
        That's interesting. In the UK these would also be considered bribes. From a quick search the US and Australia are the the only countries with this principle.
      - renewiltord 4y ago
        Yeah, dude doesn't deserve getting downvoted as hard as he is. Neither the "You'll get killed by FCPA" nor the "FCPA lets you do this" comments are legal advice. But what you're saying is, in fact, true. It allows US companies to continue to be competitive in places where this stuff is expected.
        stefan_ 4y ago
        It's an obvious exemption in FCPA that would be surprising to the majority of people, hence why I posted the gist of it. That earns you a "Jesus" by clueless people on HN these days.
      - 4y ago
  - shrewduser 4y ago
    it does sound a lot like a bribe to me.
- radicaldreamer 4y ago
  There have been many smaller companies charged with FPCA violations and even in cases where no charges were brought, the investigation cost the company enough to basically put it out of business.[0] [0]: https://fcpablog.com/2017/05/24/hyperdynamics-another-fcpa-investigation-could-sink-the-comp/ https://fcpablog.com/2017/05/24/hyperdynamics-another-fcpa-i...
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  If you are paying them to do something they're supposed to do but refuse to do in a timely manner, that may be legal. It's called a facilitating payment or grease payment, and is an exception to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Ask a real lawyer, obviously.
  - ridgered4 4y ago
    Yeah, I remember this from my compliance training because it was so ridiculous. It is just a type of bribe, but since it has a special name and a carve out it is potentially not a problem!
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      I think it's a distinction that matters, morally. A regular bribe is paying an official to do something the law says the official shouldn't do. Whereas grease money is essentially paying the official to follow the law and do their job properly. The latter rewards the official for their show of tactical incompetence, but at least it isn't paying them to break the law on your behalf. More like it's paying them to stop breaking the law.
      - VBprogrammer 4y ago
        As far as I can make out facilitation payments are a legal exception in US law, but they are illegal in Indian law. This is definitely in the ask a lawyer before you go making this kind of payment territory.
- bluGill 4y ago
  not just the us. most of europe has similar laws.
draw_down 4y ago
klausjensen 4y ago
I probably would have been, if it had been myself. However, this was my local Indian director, who is very well versed in navigating Indian bureaucracy. They were just ignorant, completely disinterested in helding and wildly incompetent.

by soperj 4y ago

cafard 4y ago

US citizens bribing foreign officials can be convicted of a felony under (I think it is) The Foreign Corrupt Practices act. Whether DOJ chases down three-developer scale stuff, or has only the staff for multi-zillion class bribes, I don't know.

stefan_ 4y ago
Paying an official to do something they were going to do (eventually) anyway does not qualify as a bribe.
- ninju 4y ago
  citation please :-) To me...if I have to pay someone to do their assigned job it seems like a bribe to me https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bribe https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bribe (using money to affect the conduct of a person)
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    >citation please :-) 15 U.S. Code § 78dd–1(b)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- coredog64 4y ago
  Maybe. From the multitude of FCPA training I’ve had to endure, you can pay to have processing expedited if there is an official policy for it. You cannot pay $1K to the head of the office because he hints that it will speed things up. Technically, you’re not even protected if you hire a local agent to do all of this for you.
- VBprogrammer 4y ago
  Jesus. Please no one take that as legal advice. Paying a bribe to get preferential treatment (even if that treatment is just to get the person to do their actual job) is a bribe none the less.
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    Paying an official to perform their job (perform a "routine governmental action") is a facilitating payment and is an exemption from the prohibitions of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/78dd-1 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/78dd-1 The point with a facilitating payment is that you've done everything that's actually required by law to e.g. get a business license and the official is still giving you the run-around, you are allowed to pay them. It doesn't apply in cases that relate to paying decision makers for contracts, for example. If you're thinking about doing this, you should absolutely consult a lawyer, but the post above is wrong on the general construction of the law.
    - VBprogrammer 4y ago
      That's interesting. In the UK these would also be considered bribes. From a quick search the US and Australia are the the only countries with this principle.
    - renewiltord 4y ago
      Yeah, dude doesn't deserve getting downvoted as hard as he is. Neither the "You'll get killed by FCPA" nor the "FCPA lets you do this" comments are legal advice. But what you're saying is, in fact, true. It allows US companies to continue to be competitive in places where this stuff is expected.
      - stefan_ 4y ago
        It's an obvious exemption in FCPA that would be surprising to the majority of people, hence why I posted the gist of it. That earns you a "Jesus" by clueless people on HN these days.
    - 4y ago
- shrewduser 4y ago
  it does sound a lot like a bribe to me.
radicaldreamer 4y ago
There have been many smaller companies charged with FPCA violations and even in cases where no charges were brought, the investigation cost the company enough to basically put it out of business.[0] [0]: https://fcpablog.com/2017/05/24/hyperdynamics-another-fcpa-investigation-could-sink-the-comp/ https://fcpablog.com/2017/05/24/hyperdynamics-another-fcpa-i...
MichaelCollins 4y ago
If you are paying them to do something they're supposed to do but refuse to do in a timely manner, that may be legal. It's called a facilitating payment or grease payment, and is an exception to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Ask a real lawyer, obviously.
- ridgered4 4y ago
  Yeah, I remember this from my compliance training because it was so ridiculous. It is just a type of bribe, but since it has a special name and a carve out it is potentially not a problem!
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    I think it's a distinction that matters, morally. A regular bribe is paying an official to do something the law says the official shouldn't do. Whereas grease money is essentially paying the official to follow the law and do their job properly. The latter rewards the official for their show of tactical incompetence, but at least it isn't paying them to break the law on your behalf. More like it's paying them to stop breaking the law.
    - VBprogrammer 4y ago
      As far as I can make out facilitation payments are a legal exception in US law, but they are illegal in Indian law. This is definitely in the ask a lawyer before you go making this kind of payment territory.
bluGill 4y ago
not just the us. most of europe has similar laws.

draw_down 4y ago

klausjensen 4y ago

I probably would have been, if it had been myself. However, this was my local Indian director, who is very well versed in navigating Indian bureaucracy. They were just ignorant, completely disinterested in helding and wildly incompetent.