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The anti-EU brigade in the comments isn't exactly giving a good showing of its intellectual caliber, with the most common arguments being that EU representative

The anti-EU brigade in the comments isn't exactly giving a good showing of its intellectual caliber, with the most common arguments being that EU representatives are unelected (true in the same sense that the president of the USA is unelected) and that regulation is impossible because Twitter is an american company (self-explanatory).

jajag 4y ago
European commissioners aren't elected in any sense of the word, they're appointed by national governments. Even if the US president is elected via an electoral college, the outcome of that vote is very much driven by the popular vote - it's in absolutely no way comparable to the way commissioners are put in office.
- frostburg 4y ago
  The national governments are either elected directly or by a directly elected parliament; there is not as much difference as you think when you consider the state-level mechanics of the electoral college (commissioners also have a lot less power, this one is just pointing out the obvious fact that Musk isn't the law, the law is the law).
- eastendguy 4y ago
  > they're appointed by national governments. ...which are elected. So if you want e. g. a right-wing EU commissioner just vote for your local right-wing party. It is that easy.
  - raspberry1337 4y ago
    >..which are elected. How indirect can democracy be until its still democracy?
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Short answer? Very.
  - mcv 4y ago
    I think most national governments are also appointed. By the national parliaments, which are elected. Maybe the EC should be appointed by the EP. That way it would be about as democratic as most national governments. Of course the problem there is that the EP is incredibly fragmented and there are almost no European parties; they're all national parties, so it's going to be hard getting a majority of those to agree on a government. I guess that's a big part of the reason why it's done by the smaller number of national governments instead, and the EP can only approve or reject.
  - origin_path 4y ago
    Only in theory. In practice the head of the Commission has the ability to veto the countries proposals, an ability you won't find in any treaty because it's not meant to exist. Nonetheless, Juncker said: https://www.rp.pl/swiat/art1359931-juncker-kaczynski-nie-chcial-sie-ze-mna-spotkac https://www.rp.pl/swiat/art1359931-juncker-kaczynski-nie-chc... "Nobody knows this, but last time I rejected six commissioners that had been presented to me by national governments. Also from Central Europe? Yes. From Hungary? Not. From Poland? Not. If I wanted it to be made public, I would have done it long ago. Let me just remind you that governments only propose commissioners, but it is the President of the European Commission who accepts them and divides their competences between them, and the European Parliament approves or rejects it." The EU spreads a lot of misinformation about its own operations. Here Juncker "reminds" the journalist of an arrangement that is explicitly not allowed by the treaties, which say the head of the Commission must accept whoever is sent by each country. He also admits that "nobody knows this" and that he never made it public. In case you think he would have accepted a right wing commissioner, let us recall this is the same man who railed against "stupid populists", said "The European Parliament is ridiculous, very ridiculous" and kept threatening eastern European countries that elected conservative governments with fines and sanctions. Von Der Layen is even worse, reacting to Italy's recent election of a right wing politician by saying that "if things go in difficult directions, we have tools". What happens in reality doesn't match what's written in the treaties much of the time. It's very effective misinformation. This thread is full of people making claims about how the EU works that reflects its own claims (or propaganda), but doesn't match the documented reality of how Brussels decision making actually operates.
- jen20 4y ago
  > the outcome of that vote is very much driven by the popular vote We’ll see about that when the far right has finished installing election officials wherever it can.
  - pmoriarty 4y ago
    Not to mention perversions of democracy like gerrymandering and the use of easily hackable electronic voting machines.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
INTPenis 4y ago
I don't know about everyone else but we sure as hell had an election for EU parliament here in Sweden. We could elect a party, or individual MPs. During the last EU election here I even called individual MPs and talked to them, or their office staff, about various subjects. So they're quite accessible.
- ThalesX 4y ago
  They're talking about the commission, not the parliament.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    And the commission is nominated by the elected governments of EU member states.
    - jansan 4y ago
      There were candidates for the commission's presidency, and Frau von der Leyen was not one of them. In fact, she was not on any lists before the election and her name only popped up afterwards, which made the whole election a farce. It's like having a presidential race between Biden and Trump and then installing Weird Al Yankovic as president after all votes are counted.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Since the head of the commission was never ever voted for in the EU elections, who ever was proposed was just providing a face anyway. Much like the Chancellor in Germany, you vote for a party that proposed a person to become chancellor in case said party leads a coalition government. There is no way to prevent said party to just have someone else being elected chancellor by parliament. It is still democratic so.
        origin_path 4y ago
        That's not accurate. Von Der Leyen was not proposed by any party. The parties proposed other leaders. The "spitzenkandidaten" system that led to Juncker becoming EU President was only used once and was ignored this time. In fact nobody knows why or how Von Der Leyen became the EU President, only that the council leaders disappeared into a secret meeting and at the end, the deed was done. What was discussed? Were countries bribed or threatened to go along with it? What exactly qualified her for this role given her track record of failure in Germany? Nobody knows the answers to these questions. So no, it's really nothing like the Chancellor in Germany or leadership anywhere else. The EU's own misinformation campaign around this topic is clearly highly effective. Normally, the people who run the country are elected by at least some local voters and then by the party itself. With the EU Commission, the president just ... turned up.
k__ 4y ago
"EU representatives are unelected (true in the same sense that the president of the USA is unelected)" To be fair, both are kind of a shit show.
323 4y ago
> true in the same sense that the president of the USA is unelected Really? That's some knot-twisting you have right there.
- pjc50 4y ago
  If you say the US is a democracy, a whole bunch of people will come out of the woodwork to explain that it's a republic and the President is indirectly elected. Certainly the President is not elected by popular vote, a very important fact recently. Nor does the Federal government run the presidential elections.
  - xxs 4y ago
    >a very important fact _recently_ Not only, George W. Bush didn't win the popular vote, either - that was 22year back.
  - rascul 4y ago
    It's both a democracy and a republic. The terms are not mutually exclusive and an indirect democracy is still a democracy. Edit: Also, it's not just a single system. At different levels the positions are directly elected.
  - weberer 4y ago
    The US is a republic rather than a democracy because people don't vote directly on laws. Its unrelated to how the president is elected. An example of a democracy would be the Swiss system.
pjc50 4y ago
HN should be more generous towards Thierry Breton: an EU commissioner with a computer science degree! > Breton received a master's degree in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science from École Supérieure d'Électricité (Supélec, now CentraleSupélec) in 1979 and later graduated from the Institut des hautes études de défense nationale (IHEDN).[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thierry_Breton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thierry_Breton - former VP of Groupe Bull and various other high-ranking telecoms posts there. Also: > Breton received world attention after an interview with the Wall Street Journal in 2011 when he reiterated his intention to ban internal email, dubbed as "the pollution of the information age", at Atos within 18 months (known as the zero-email strategy), replacing internal emails by a set of enterprise social networks, enterprise instant messaging, collaborative tools etc..., both being developed inhouse and partially aggregated from other vendors
raspberry1337 4y ago
I don't see any of these comments. Could it be that you are disingenious? pro-EU sentiments seem to attract the biggest turds. I say this as an unfortunate member of our bureaucratic european union.
- frostburg 4y ago
  When I wrote that, the thread was empty and I was referring to the Twitter thread, not this one.

jajag 4y ago

European commissioners aren't elected in any sense of the word, they're appointed by national governments. Even if the US president is elected via an electoral college, the outcome of that vote is very much driven by the popular vote - it's in absolutely no way comparable to the way commissioners are put in office.

frostburg 4y ago
The national governments are either elected directly or by a directly elected parliament; there is not as much difference as you think when you consider the state-level mechanics of the electoral college (commissioners also have a lot less power, this one is just pointing out the obvious fact that Musk isn't the law, the law is the law).
eastendguy 4y ago
> they're appointed by national governments. ...which are elected. So if you want e. g. a right-wing EU commissioner just vote for your local right-wing party. It is that easy.
- raspberry1337 4y ago
  >..which are elected. How indirect can democracy be until its still democracy?
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Short answer? Very.
- mcv 4y ago
  I think most national governments are also appointed. By the national parliaments, which are elected. Maybe the EC should be appointed by the EP. That way it would be about as democratic as most national governments. Of course the problem there is that the EP is incredibly fragmented and there are almost no European parties; they're all national parties, so it's going to be hard getting a majority of those to agree on a government. I guess that's a big part of the reason why it's done by the smaller number of national governments instead, and the EP can only approve or reject.
- origin_path 4y ago
  Only in theory. In practice the head of the Commission has the ability to veto the countries proposals, an ability you won't find in any treaty because it's not meant to exist. Nonetheless, Juncker said: https://www.rp.pl/swiat/art1359931-juncker-kaczynski-nie-chcial-sie-ze-mna-spotkac https://www.rp.pl/swiat/art1359931-juncker-kaczynski-nie-chc... "Nobody knows this, but last time I rejected six commissioners that had been presented to me by national governments. Also from Central Europe? Yes. From Hungary? Not. From Poland? Not. If I wanted it to be made public, I would have done it long ago. Let me just remind you that governments only propose commissioners, but it is the President of the European Commission who accepts them and divides their competences between them, and the European Parliament approves or rejects it." The EU spreads a lot of misinformation about its own operations. Here Juncker "reminds" the journalist of an arrangement that is explicitly not allowed by the treaties, which say the head of the Commission must accept whoever is sent by each country. He also admits that "nobody knows this" and that he never made it public. In case you think he would have accepted a right wing commissioner, let us recall this is the same man who railed against "stupid populists", said "The European Parliament is ridiculous, very ridiculous" and kept threatening eastern European countries that elected conservative governments with fines and sanctions. Von Der Layen is even worse, reacting to Italy's recent election of a right wing politician by saying that "if things go in difficult directions, we have tools". What happens in reality doesn't match what's written in the treaties much of the time. It's very effective misinformation. This thread is full of people making claims about how the EU works that reflects its own claims (or propaganda), but doesn't match the documented reality of how Brussels decision making actually operates.
jen20 4y ago
> the outcome of that vote is very much driven by the popular vote We’ll see about that when the far right has finished installing election officials wherever it can.
- pmoriarty 4y ago
  Not to mention perversions of democracy like gerrymandering and the use of easily hackable electronic voting machines.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

INTPenis 4y ago

I don't know about everyone else but we sure as hell had an election for EU parliament here in Sweden. We could elect a party, or individual MPs. During the last EU election here I even called individual MPs and talked to them, or their office staff, about various subjects. So they're quite accessible.

ThalesX 4y ago
They're talking about the commission, not the parliament.
- hef19898 4y ago
  And the commission is nominated by the elected governments of EU member states.
  - jansan 4y ago
    There were candidates for the commission's presidency, and Frau von der Leyen was not one of them. In fact, she was not on any lists before the election and her name only popped up afterwards, which made the whole election a farce. It's like having a presidential race between Biden and Trump and then installing Weird Al Yankovic as president after all votes are counted.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Since the head of the commission was never ever voted for in the EU elections, who ever was proposed was just providing a face anyway. Much like the Chancellor in Germany, you vote for a party that proposed a person to become chancellor in case said party leads a coalition government. There is no way to prevent said party to just have someone else being elected chancellor by parliament. It is still democratic so.
      - origin_path 4y ago
        That's not accurate. Von Der Leyen was not proposed by any party. The parties proposed other leaders. The "spitzenkandidaten" system that led to Juncker becoming EU President was only used once and was ignored this time. In fact nobody knows why or how Von Der Leyen became the EU President, only that the council leaders disappeared into a secret meeting and at the end, the deed was done. What was discussed? Were countries bribed or threatened to go along with it? What exactly qualified her for this role given her track record of failure in Germany? Nobody knows the answers to these questions. So no, it's really nothing like the Chancellor in Germany or leadership anywhere else. The EU's own misinformation campaign around this topic is clearly highly effective. Normally, the people who run the country are elected by at least some local voters and then by the party itself. With the EU Commission, the president just ... turned up.

k__ 4y ago

"EU representatives are unelected (true in the same sense that the president of the USA is unelected)" To be fair, both are kind of a shit show.

323 4y ago

> true in the same sense that the president of the USA is unelected Really? That's some knot-twisting you have right there.

pjc50 4y ago
If you say the US is a democracy, a whole bunch of people will come out of the woodwork to explain that it's a republic and the President is indirectly elected. Certainly the President is not elected by popular vote, a very important fact recently. Nor does the Federal government run the presidential elections.
- xxs 4y ago
  >a very important fact _recently_ Not only, George W. Bush didn't win the popular vote, either - that was 22year back.
- rascul 4y ago
  It's both a democracy and a republic. The terms are not mutually exclusive and an indirect democracy is still a democracy. Edit: Also, it's not just a single system. At different levels the positions are directly elected.
- weberer 4y ago
  The US is a republic rather than a democracy because people don't vote directly on laws. Its unrelated to how the president is elected. An example of a democracy would be the Swiss system.

pjc50 4y ago

HN should be more generous towards Thierry Breton: an EU commissioner with a computer science degree! > Breton received a master's degree in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science from École Supérieure d'Électricité (Supélec, now CentraleSupélec) in 1979 and later graduated from the Institut des hautes études de défense nationale (IHEDN).[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thierry_Breton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thierry_Breton - former VP of Groupe Bull and various other high-ranking telecoms posts there. Also: > Breton received world attention after an interview with the Wall Street Journal in 2011 when he reiterated his intention to ban internal email, dubbed as "the pollution of the information age", at Atos within 18 months (known as the zero-email strategy), replacing internal emails by a set of enterprise social networks, enterprise instant messaging, collaborative tools etc..., both being developed inhouse and partially aggregated from other vendors

raspberry1337 4y ago

I don't see any of these comments. Could it be that you are disingenious? pro-EU sentiments seem to attract the biggest turds. I say this as an unfortunate member of our bureaucratic european union.

frostburg 4y ago
When I wrote that, the thread was empty and I was referring to the Twitter thread, not this one.