5 ms·

It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes in an area where bribery is customary: > Obviously, they are playing “hard

It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes in an area where bribery is customary: > Obviously, they are playing “hard to get” to get me to pay some bribe and initiate the process. But after going through all this, I am not going to pay any bribe to anyone. And: > And they openly demanded bribes after waiting for four months. > So the Gram Panchayat NOC is stuck because of non payment of bribe.

agileAlligator 4y ago
> It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes Duh?
- sonthonax 4y ago
  There’s a distinction to be made between a small customary bribe to an seriously underpaid state employee, and a larcenous bribe to a high official.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > a distinction to be made between a small customary bribe to an seriously underpaid state employee, and a larcenous bribe to a high official Not really. If normalized, it's part of their expected compensation package. Practically speaking, I think I'd suck it up and pay the bribe in the author's position. But I'd know I was doing wrong.
    - LeanderK 4y ago
      > If normalized, it's part of their expected compensation package. But it already is normalised. I think this is morally difficult because it is customary, expected and if you refuse you will not get anything done but also won't change anything. So what have you gained? I don't think you can fight corruption this way, you just can't do it alone.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - silon42 4y ago
    So it is a "tip" for quality of service.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    Bribes scale up. How much is the underpaid state employee "tipping out" to his boss? Or had to pay to get the job in the first place?
  - agileAlligator 4y ago
    They are both immoral
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    Not according to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA). The FCPA basically says that as a representative of a US corporation (in my case, anyone at a Staff Engineer level or above), it's illegal to bribe an official of a foreign government. It does try to make a distinction (sort of) between the kinds of bribe you're talking about but in my FCPA training, that "distinction" boils down to "go ask your lawyer." The lawyer will just tell you how to do it in a way that doesn't look like a bribe, even though it still is.
    - sonthonax 4y ago
      FCPA is such a stupid law. The universal way to bribe someone as an American is to pay them a absurd day rate for consulting. These people then have to be given fake roles when all they do is hand over money to corrupt officials. It just adds yet another layer. Just as an FYI it’s very hard to be convicted of under FCPA if you’re just operating in a personal capacity. So don’t worry about bribing policemen in foreign counties.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  >> It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes > Duh? It's only "Duh" because you snipped the qualifier out. It's not "Duh" if you read until the end of the sentence like you normally do: > in an area where bribery is customary See?
  - primax 4y ago
    I mean, isn't it extraordinarily clear that he doesn't want to pay bribes and that bribes are customary. Hence... duh?
  - otikik 4y ago
    The fact that a lot of people do it customarily doesn't preclude for it to me morally reprehensible. To bring it to the extremes: If I found myself visiting Germany during World War 2, I would still strongly object to killing jews, even if it was "customary" there. And since know this is a reductio-at-hitlerum, I will try again: I would not seek or consent or engage to having pedophilic sexual intercourse if I found myself in certain neighborhoods of Thailand, where apparently it is commonplace. Perhaps a bit less extreme: I would not expect someone who is a convinced vegetarian to start consuming meat when they arrive to my country just because meat is consumed in almost every meal here.
  - agileAlligator 4y ago
    It doesn't matter whether it is customary. I live about 200km away from where the author is, I have never paid a bribe in my life, and I never will. They make you sweat it out for 4-5 months and then eventually it gets done.
- egorfine 4y ago
  Exactly. This is what the rest of the world usually says on the first encounter with "tips culture" in the US. As I see it, cultures are different and one thing that is considered an absolute taboo in one culture might be customary in another. Tips in the US are customary yet at the same time they are offensive in Japan. Bribes are killing the economy in my country yet it makes economy moving in India. PS: I personally hate corruption more than anything.
  - kumarvvr 4y ago
    First time I am hearing about this. Could you elaborate on the Tips culture in US? Do you have any first hand or second hand experience with it?
    - pjc50 4y ago
      US waitstaff aren't covered by minimum wage laws - effectively a very large component of their income is "variable compensation" through tips. This is "expected" to be 10-20%. The culture doesn't quite come out and say "you need to put down 10% more than the number stated on your bill in order for the person serving you to make rent", but if you don't it will be interpreted as an insult.
    - inkcapmushroom 4y ago
      For waitstaff at a restaurant, baristas at a coffee shop, bartenders, or people giving personalized service (for example a tattoo artist) it's customary to give a tip of ~20% extra on top of the bill. The expectation is that extra money goes directly to the staff giving you the service, and you are expected to pay it; many of these services jobs are actually legally allowed to pay less than minimum wage with the expectation that the tips will cover the difference. You are allowed to give less if you feel the service wasn't satisfactory, or if it's an especially large bill, but to give no tip at all means you are a terrible person. From my experience most people working these jobs prefer the tips system the way it is because a lot of times it's in cash so they can fudge their tax numbers if they want (might not be true nowadays as less people use cash), and also because often they make more money through tips than minimum wage, and they think if tips were removed the restaurants would only pay them minimum wage.
- pseudo0 4y ago
  In a region where bribery is customary, trying to get stuff done without bribes is a case of tilting at windmills. I applaud the author's willingness to stand up for his convictions, but realistically his options are to either pay the bribes or set up his business in a less corrupt region. An entrenched local bureaucracy can easily outlast a typical small business when it comes to a fight like this.
sebstefan 4y ago
I wouldn't consider the author to be the problem.
dottedmag 4y ago
India Penal code, 171E. Up to 1 year in prison.
LatteLazy 4y ago
We should use different terms for what is currently covered by "bribes": Money paid illegally to gain an unfair advantage, that will result in local prosecution if discovered and is not the usual practise is a "bribe". No one should pay those. Money paid illegally to gain normal access/approvals/licenses etc, where it is entirely normal to pay and unlikely to lead to local prosecution is "extortion". Op isn't really paying a bride, he's being extorted.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

agileAlligator 4y ago

> It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes Duh?

sonthonax 4y ago
There’s a distinction to be made between a small customary bribe to an seriously underpaid state employee, and a larcenous bribe to a high official.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > a distinction to be made between a small customary bribe to an seriously underpaid state employee, and a larcenous bribe to a high official Not really. If normalized, it's part of their expected compensation package. Practically speaking, I think I'd suck it up and pay the bribe in the author's position. But I'd know I was doing wrong.
  - LeanderK 4y ago
    > If normalized, it's part of their expected compensation package. But it already is normalised. I think this is morally difficult because it is customary, expected and if you refuse you will not get anything done but also won't change anything. So what have you gained? I don't think you can fight corruption this way, you just can't do it alone.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- silon42 4y ago
  So it is a "tip" for quality of service.
- pjc50 4y ago
  Bribes scale up. How much is the underpaid state employee "tipping out" to his boss? Or had to pay to get the job in the first place?
- agileAlligator 4y ago
  They are both immoral
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Not according to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA). The FCPA basically says that as a representative of a US corporation (in my case, anyone at a Staff Engineer level or above), it's illegal to bribe an official of a foreign government. It does try to make a distinction (sort of) between the kinds of bribe you're talking about but in my FCPA training, that "distinction" boils down to "go ask your lawyer." The lawyer will just tell you how to do it in a way that doesn't look like a bribe, even though it still is.
  - sonthonax 4y ago
    FCPA is such a stupid law. The universal way to bribe someone as an American is to pay them a absurd day rate for consulting. These people then have to be given fake roles when all they do is hand over money to corrupt officials. It just adds yet another layer. Just as an FYI it’s very hard to be convicted of under FCPA if you’re just operating in a personal capacity. So don’t worry about bribing policemen in foreign counties.
lelanthran 4y ago
>> It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes > Duh? It's only "Duh" because you snipped the qualifier out. It's not "Duh" if you read until the end of the sentence like you normally do: > in an area where bribery is customary See?
- primax 4y ago
  I mean, isn't it extraordinarily clear that he doesn't want to pay bribes and that bribes are customary. Hence... duh?
- otikik 4y ago
  The fact that a lot of people do it customarily doesn't preclude for it to me morally reprehensible. To bring it to the extremes: If I found myself visiting Germany during World War 2, I would still strongly object to killing jews, even if it was "customary" there. And since know this is a reductio-at-hitlerum, I will try again: I would not seek or consent or engage to having pedophilic sexual intercourse if I found myself in certain neighborhoods of Thailand, where apparently it is commonplace. Perhaps a bit less extreme: I would not expect someone who is a convinced vegetarian to start consuming meat when they arrive to my country just because meat is consumed in almost every meal here.
- agileAlligator 4y ago
  It doesn't matter whether it is customary. I live about 200km away from where the author is, I have never paid a bribe in my life, and I never will. They make you sweat it out for 4-5 months and then eventually it gets done.
egorfine 4y ago
Exactly. This is what the rest of the world usually says on the first encounter with "tips culture" in the US. As I see it, cultures are different and one thing that is considered an absolute taboo in one culture might be customary in another. Tips in the US are customary yet at the same time they are offensive in Japan. Bribes are killing the economy in my country yet it makes economy moving in India. PS: I personally hate corruption more than anything.
- kumarvvr 4y ago
  First time I am hearing about this. Could you elaborate on the Tips culture in US? Do you have any first hand or second hand experience with it?
  - pjc50 4y ago
    US waitstaff aren't covered by minimum wage laws - effectively a very large component of their income is "variable compensation" through tips. This is "expected" to be 10-20%. The culture doesn't quite come out and say "you need to put down 10% more than the number stated on your bill in order for the person serving you to make rent", but if you don't it will be interpreted as an insult.
  - inkcapmushroom 4y ago
    For waitstaff at a restaurant, baristas at a coffee shop, bartenders, or people giving personalized service (for example a tattoo artist) it's customary to give a tip of ~20% extra on top of the bill. The expectation is that extra money goes directly to the staff giving you the service, and you are expected to pay it; many of these services jobs are actually legally allowed to pay less than minimum wage with the expectation that the tips will cover the difference. You are allowed to give less if you feel the service wasn't satisfactory, or if it's an especially large bill, but to give no tip at all means you are a terrible person. From my experience most people working these jobs prefer the tips system the way it is because a lot of times it's in cash so they can fudge their tax numbers if they want (might not be true nowadays as less people use cash), and also because often they make more money through tips than minimum wage, and they think if tips were removed the restaurants would only pay them minimum wage.
pseudo0 4y ago
In a region where bribery is customary, trying to get stuff done without bribes is a case of tilting at windmills. I applaud the author's willingness to stand up for his convictions, but realistically his options are to either pay the bribes or set up his business in a less corrupt region. An entrenched local bureaucracy can easily outlast a typical small business when it comes to a fight like this.

sebstefan 4y ago

I wouldn't consider the author to be the problem.

dottedmag 4y ago

India Penal code, 171E. Up to 1 year in prison.

LatteLazy 4y ago

We should use different terms for what is currently covered by "bribes": Money paid illegally to gain an unfair advantage, that will result in local prosecution if discovered and is not the usual practise is a "bribe". No one should pay those. Money paid illegally to gain normal access/approvals/licenses etc, where it is entirely normal to pay and unlikely to lead to local prosecution is "extortion". Op isn't really paying a bride, he's being extorted.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]