4 ms·

> Any story that doesn't note that camera makers should've begun adopting Android at least a decade ago Cameras have a very tight energy budget. It’s not uncom

> Any story that doesn't note that camera makers should've begun adopting Android at least a decade ago Cameras have a very tight energy budget. It’s not uncommon for current mirrorless camera to not get even 300 shots per batt charge. I’m not sure running a full-fledged multipurpose OS like Android would help that? And why is the software a problem exactly? I don’t care running apps on my camera.

squokko 4y ago
Software is a problem because software is what lets the dinky smartphone camera get a near-mirrorless-level result. If the mirrorless body had the smartphone's software, the image quality would be mindblowing.
- aikinai 4y ago
  Smartphones are nowhere near mirrorless level. Maybe if you only look at the thumbnail? Actually even then they would only be similar in extremely bright environments. I agree mirrorless cameras could do more, but I’m not sure if it’s worth the compromises (power, cost, etc). The cameras don’t need all the processing since they have plenty of real signal to work with. If they did use a bunch of processing, it would need to be entirely new techniques from what phones do since those are pointless when you already have a quality image.
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  Is there a reason the cameras can't capture the raw data to be processed later? That would also provide more artistic control, which is desirable on a professional/prosumer device. (I'd also question the "near-mirrorless-level" statement. My iPhone's camera is quite good, but my Nikon D750—admittedly not mirrorless, but a professional camera—is still on another level.)
  - Zak 4y ago
    The main software tricks phones are using are HDR and noise reduction by means of stacking. Your D750 has an exposure bracketing feature and many image editors have stacking functionality. Of course it's hard to get perfectly aligned shots without a tripod or a very good image stabilizer, though I imagine some software can align and perspective-shift them enough to get decent results.
    - _aavaa_ 4y ago
      Funny you mention that. I recently stumbled onto software that does just that [1]. It implements Google’s stacking algorithm that it uses for the pixel line. It’s Mac only, but fantastic. Even a two photo stack produces much better noise reduction than I could get from software. [1] https://burst.photo/ https://burst.photo/
      - totoglazer 4y ago
        It’s neat. I think it falls short on the comparison to the Google paper where they provide comparisons. However they get major points for the clarity and honesty on the tech.
        _aavaa_ 4y ago
        It's hard to tell exactly since while their comparison image is the same (the taxi cab) it looks like they've increased the exposure on their comparison. The app also says it uses a "simplified" version of the approach google lays out, but doesn't provide more details about what was simplified out. (and I haven't dived through the code)
    - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
      > Your D750 has an exposure bracketing feature and many image editors have stacking functionality. Of course it's hard to get perfectly aligned shots without a tripod Yeah, since I don't have a tripod I've found it to be basically useless (although it's very possible I haven't found the right software). I have always assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the camera's physical shutter prevented getting shots in as quick succession as a phone. The thing is, the camera has enough dynamic range I don't feel like I need more than one shot anyway.
      - Zak 4y ago
        Some mirrorless cameras do this better, offering very fast burst rates with electronic shutter and good enough stabilization for easy stacking.
  - dboreham 4y ago
    > Is there a reason the cameras can't capture the raw data to be processed later? I'm not sure if this was a ironic comment, but assuming not: all serious cameras have been able to do this for 20 years.
    - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
      I thought maybe GP was referring to something more complex than your standard RAW capture. No idea what that would entail.
  - squokko 4y ago
    The phone's camera hardware is different. It captures a short burst of photos at high frame rate, and also integrates the data from the gyroscope to cancel out the effects of camera shake.
nl 4y ago
Moving parts (autofocus!) will dominate the energy budget, and cameras can fit much bigger batteries than phones. Running 24 hours+ isn't a problem for phones, and most cameras won't need network to be on most of that time. > I don’t care running apps on my camera. I'm sure that's true, but people love their image editing apps on their phones, and love being able to post clips directly to TikTok.
- fomine3 4y ago
  Sony A7IV uses 16.4Wh battery that is equivalent to 4432mAh/3.7V. It's on par to latest smartphones. It's true that it could have bigger battery but it's not everyone want.
- formerly_proven 4y ago
  > Moving parts (autofocus!) will dominate the energy budget, I've never noticed a difference between AF and MF lenses in battery use. What matters most by far is how long the EVF/display is on. Distant second is how many shots you actually take.
sudosysgen 4y ago
Sony cameras actually used to run Android. You could even sideload apks.
- freetime2 4y ago
  Can you provide more details/source for this? I didn't see any evidence for this in a quick Google search.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    I don’t recall a Sony, but Samsung def had one at one point. And today there’s a Chinese company named Yongnuo that produces them.
  - shawn-butler 4y ago
    Recent Sony cameras[0] include an Android subsystem used to run apps from the proprietary Sony PlayMemories Camera App Store (PMCA). Sony utilizes both Linux and the AV real time operating system (µITRON RTOS) on its arm cores. Some of the nikon coolpix I believe were full android devices but are just a glorified phone / p&s not a dslr. Nikon also uses µITRON RTOS on its proprietary expeed ASIC cores. Canon has a proprietary inhouse OS named DRYOS for its DIGIC ASICs. [0]: https://openmemories.readthedocs.io/devices.html https://openmemories.readthedocs.io/devices.html
hef19898 4y ago
The battery life difference seems to be mostly on paper so (never tried it, but based on the meassurement method). Testing requires the cameras to be on for a certain time between shots, mirrorless obviously consumes more power with screens and EVFs powerd, DSLRs don't use any power at all when not shooting. Propably wouldn't make difference for me, my cameras are always off when not on my eye. The time it takes from getting them up there is enough for them to boot (Nikon bodies), so the difference between an EVF and a DSLR should be marginal in that case.

squokko 4y ago

Software is a problem because software is what lets the dinky smartphone camera get a near-mirrorless-level result. If the mirrorless body had the smartphone's software, the image quality would be mindblowing.

aikinai 4y ago
Smartphones are nowhere near mirrorless level. Maybe if you only look at the thumbnail? Actually even then they would only be similar in extremely bright environments. I agree mirrorless cameras could do more, but I’m not sure if it’s worth the compromises (power, cost, etc). The cameras don’t need all the processing since they have plenty of real signal to work with. If they did use a bunch of processing, it would need to be entirely new techniques from what phones do since those are pointless when you already have a quality image.
Wowfunhappy 4y ago
Is there a reason the cameras can't capture the raw data to be processed later? That would also provide more artistic control, which is desirable on a professional/prosumer device. (I'd also question the "near-mirrorless-level" statement. My iPhone's camera is quite good, but my Nikon D750—admittedly not mirrorless, but a professional camera—is still on another level.)
- Zak 4y ago
  The main software tricks phones are using are HDR and noise reduction by means of stacking. Your D750 has an exposure bracketing feature and many image editors have stacking functionality. Of course it's hard to get perfectly aligned shots without a tripod or a very good image stabilizer, though I imagine some software can align and perspective-shift them enough to get decent results.
  - _aavaa_ 4y ago
    Funny you mention that. I recently stumbled onto software that does just that [1]. It implements Google’s stacking algorithm that it uses for the pixel line. It’s Mac only, but fantastic. Even a two photo stack produces much better noise reduction than I could get from software. [1] https://burst.photo/ https://burst.photo/
    - totoglazer 4y ago
      It’s neat. I think it falls short on the comparison to the Google paper where they provide comparisons. However they get major points for the clarity and honesty on the tech.
      - _aavaa_ 4y ago
        It's hard to tell exactly since while their comparison image is the same (the taxi cab) it looks like they've increased the exposure on their comparison. The app also says it uses a "simplified" version of the approach google lays out, but doesn't provide more details about what was simplified out. (and I haven't dived through the code)
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    > Your D750 has an exposure bracketing feature and many image editors have stacking functionality. Of course it's hard to get perfectly aligned shots without a tripod Yeah, since I don't have a tripod I've found it to be basically useless (although it's very possible I haven't found the right software). I have always assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the camera's physical shutter prevented getting shots in as quick succession as a phone. The thing is, the camera has enough dynamic range I don't feel like I need more than one shot anyway.
    - Zak 4y ago
      Some mirrorless cameras do this better, offering very fast burst rates with electronic shutter and good enough stabilization for easy stacking.
- dboreham 4y ago
  > Is there a reason the cameras can't capture the raw data to be processed later? I'm not sure if this was a ironic comment, but assuming not: all serious cameras have been able to do this for 20 years.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    I thought maybe GP was referring to something more complex than your standard RAW capture. No idea what that would entail.
- squokko 4y ago
  The phone's camera hardware is different. It captures a short burst of photos at high frame rate, and also integrates the data from the gyroscope to cancel out the effects of camera shake.

nl 4y ago

Moving parts (autofocus!) will dominate the energy budget, and cameras can fit much bigger batteries than phones. Running 24 hours+ isn't a problem for phones, and most cameras won't need network to be on most of that time. > I don’t care running apps on my camera. I'm sure that's true, but people love their image editing apps on their phones, and love being able to post clips directly to TikTok.

fomine3 4y ago
Sony A7IV uses 16.4Wh battery that is equivalent to 4432mAh/3.7V. It's on par to latest smartphones. It's true that it could have bigger battery but it's not everyone want.
formerly_proven 4y ago
> Moving parts (autofocus!) will dominate the energy budget, I've never noticed a difference between AF and MF lenses in battery use. What matters most by far is how long the EVF/display is on. Distant second is how many shots you actually take.

sudosysgen 4y ago

Sony cameras actually used to run Android. You could even sideload apks.

freetime2 4y ago
Can you provide more details/source for this? I didn't see any evidence for this in a quick Google search.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  I don’t recall a Sony, but Samsung def had one at one point. And today there’s a Chinese company named Yongnuo that produces them.
- shawn-butler 4y ago
  Recent Sony cameras[0] include an Android subsystem used to run apps from the proprietary Sony PlayMemories Camera App Store (PMCA). Sony utilizes both Linux and the AV real time operating system (µITRON RTOS) on its arm cores. Some of the nikon coolpix I believe were full android devices but are just a glorified phone / p&s not a dslr. Nikon also uses µITRON RTOS on its proprietary expeed ASIC cores. Canon has a proprietary inhouse OS named DRYOS for its DIGIC ASICs. [0]: https://openmemories.readthedocs.io/devices.html https://openmemories.readthedocs.io/devices.html

hef19898 4y ago

The battery life difference seems to be mostly on paper so (never tried it, but based on the meassurement method). Testing requires the cameras to be on for a certain time between shots, mirrorless obviously consumes more power with screens and EVFs powerd, DSLRs don't use any power at all when not shooting. Propably wouldn't make difference for me, my cameras are always off when not on my eye. The time it takes from getting them up there is enough for them to boot (Nikon bodies), so the difference between an EVF and a DSLR should be marginal in that case.