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Most people don't care about being body builders, so I am not sure why you are getting into this topic. Every reputable nutritional organization says vegetarian

Most people don't care about being body builders, so I am not sure why you are getting into this topic. Every reputable nutritional organization says vegetarian / vegan diet is ok and on top of that the longest living populations are mostly eating plant-based diet, suggesting they are not only nutritionally appropriate, but also desirable in order to maintain body function over time.

rcarr 4y ago
> Every reputable nutritional organization says vegetarian / vegan diet is ok Ok yes, optimal no. You cant say a diet (vegan) that requires artificial produced supplementation (vitamin b12) in order for you to survive is the optimal diet for humans. It just doesn’t make any sense. If our ancestors ate vegan diets before we had mastered science we literally would not be alive having this conversation because they would have all perished of anaemia. > on top of that the longest living populations are mostly eating plant-based diet. The longest living populations are eating diets that are heavy on plants yes, but not vegetarian or vegan. If anything, the blue zones have a higher proportion of fish intake than elsewhere. And I went off on the bodybuilder tangent because the original commenter specifically asked about a line in my story which was to do with me hitting my macros and trying to find lean protein sources in order to do that. At the time, I was doing bodybuilding and CrossFit so it was relevant to the question asked.
- rafaelero 4y ago
  > You cant say a diet (vegan) that requires artificial produced supplementation (vitamin b12) in order for you to survive is the optimal diet for humans. You know animals don't produce B12 as well, right? They come from bacteria in the soil. > The longest living populations are eating diets that are heavy on plants yes, but not vegetarian or vegan. Take a look at the Seven-day Adventist study (the population with the highest longevity ever recorded). Between this group, the ones excluding all animal products from the diet actually live longer than the rest.
  - rcarr 4y ago
    > You know animals don't produce B12 as well, right? They come from bacteria in the soil. Good luck with your soil recipes. > Take a look at the Seven-day Adventist study (the population with the highest longevity ever recorded). Between this group, the ones excluding all animal products from the diet actually live longer than the rest. Not true. Pesco-vegetarians had a lower death rate. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4191896/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4191896/
    - myshpa 4y ago
      > Good luck with your soil recipes. Farm animals eat tons of added B12 in their feed. Grazing animals get their B12 from dirt, because they don't wash their greens. If you purchase B12 fortified vegan foods, you don't have to eat supplements. When you wash your salads and don't eat fortified foods, then you should eat B12 supplements ... there are vegan B12 supplements from algae on the market.
    - rafaelero 4y ago
      > Good luck with your soil recipes. Wtf. > Not true. Pesco-vegetarians had a lower death rate. They are not statistically distinguishable.
      - rcarr 4y ago
        If they’re not “statistically distinguishable” why are you trying to claim the vegans have higher longevity?
        rafaelero 4y ago
        Because between non-meat eaters and meat eaters there's a statistically significant reduction, while between vegans and fish-eaters there isn't?
        rcarr 4y ago
        So I stated: > The longest living populations are eating diets that are heavy on plants yes, but not vegetarian or vegan. The people longest living at the adventist church are pesco-vegetarians which are not vegetarians as far as I’m concerned. Also as far as I’m aware, there is no significant difference between the Adventist church goers in terms of life expectancy and the other blue zones, which are also consuming small to moderate amounts of meat, dairy, fish and alcohol.
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  I don’t grant your claim that a diet isn’t optimal just because it includes a b12 pill. In fact that it’s so trivial to supplement makes me wonder why you take for granted that there’s some magical bonus from incidentally getting it from a non-supplement. It’s like saying getting vitamin D fortified milk is superior to taking the fortification yourself. I bet this cashes out into the appeal to fallacy. Frankly I see no reason why the optimal human diet can’t be some undiscovered 100% artificial diet that we can synthesize from scratch. To say otherwise, including your b12 belief, leads to some pretty hilarious reductios.
jablala 4y ago
I think resentment is the word we're all looking for.

rcarr 4y ago

> Every reputable nutritional organization says vegetarian / vegan diet is ok Ok yes, optimal no. You cant say a diet (vegan) that requires artificial produced supplementation (vitamin b12) in order for you to survive is the optimal diet for humans. It just doesn’t make any sense. If our ancestors ate vegan diets before we had mastered science we literally would not be alive having this conversation because they would have all perished of anaemia. > on top of that the longest living populations are mostly eating plant-based diet. The longest living populations are eating diets that are heavy on plants yes, but not vegetarian or vegan. If anything, the blue zones have a higher proportion of fish intake than elsewhere. And I went off on the bodybuilder tangent because the original commenter specifically asked about a line in my story which was to do with me hitting my macros and trying to find lean protein sources in order to do that. At the time, I was doing bodybuilding and CrossFit so it was relevant to the question asked.

rafaelero 4y ago
> You cant say a diet (vegan) that requires artificial produced supplementation (vitamin b12) in order for you to survive is the optimal diet for humans. You know animals don't produce B12 as well, right? They come from bacteria in the soil. > The longest living populations are eating diets that are heavy on plants yes, but not vegetarian or vegan. Take a look at the Seven-day Adventist study (the population with the highest longevity ever recorded). Between this group, the ones excluding all animal products from the diet actually live longer than the rest.
- rcarr 4y ago
  > You know animals don't produce B12 as well, right? They come from bacteria in the soil. Good luck with your soil recipes. > Take a look at the Seven-day Adventist study (the population with the highest longevity ever recorded). Between this group, the ones excluding all animal products from the diet actually live longer than the rest. Not true. Pesco-vegetarians had a lower death rate. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4191896/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4191896/
  - myshpa 4y ago
    > Good luck with your soil recipes. Farm animals eat tons of added B12 in their feed. Grazing animals get their B12 from dirt, because they don't wash their greens. If you purchase B12 fortified vegan foods, you don't have to eat supplements. When you wash your salads and don't eat fortified foods, then you should eat B12 supplements ... there are vegan B12 supplements from algae on the market.
  - rafaelero 4y ago
    > Good luck with your soil recipes. Wtf. > Not true. Pesco-vegetarians had a lower death rate. They are not statistically distinguishable.
    - rcarr 4y ago
      If they’re not “statistically distinguishable” why are you trying to claim the vegans have higher longevity?
      - rafaelero 4y ago
        Because between non-meat eaters and meat eaters there's a statistically significant reduction, while between vegans and fish-eaters there isn't?
        rcarr 4y ago
        So I stated: > The longest living populations are eating diets that are heavy on plants yes, but not vegetarian or vegan. The people longest living at the adventist church are pesco-vegetarians which are not vegetarians as far as I’m concerned. Also as far as I’m aware, there is no significant difference between the Adventist church goers in terms of life expectancy and the other blue zones, which are also consuming small to moderate amounts of meat, dairy, fish and alcohol.
hombre_fatal 4y ago
I don’t grant your claim that a diet isn’t optimal just because it includes a b12 pill. In fact that it’s so trivial to supplement makes me wonder why you take for granted that there’s some magical bonus from incidentally getting it from a non-supplement. It’s like saying getting vitamin D fortified milk is superior to taking the fortification yourself. I bet this cashes out into the appeal to fallacy. Frankly I see no reason why the optimal human diet can’t be some undiscovered 100% artificial diet that we can synthesize from scratch. To say otherwise, including your b12 belief, leads to some pretty hilarious reductios.

jablala 4y ago

I think resentment is the word we're all looking for.