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>It would require having 3 to 4 protein shakes a day or doing lots of cooking and prep. All the natural vegan protein sources outside of protein shakes weren’t

>It would require having 3 to 4 protein shakes a day or doing lots of cooking and prep. All the natural vegan protein sources outside of protein shakes weren’t lean; they also contained lots of carbs or fats. This made hitting macros hard. A large number of Indian people are vegetarian (plants + poultry eggs + cow/goat milk), and I've never heard of them having such problems. Why? I certainly didn't have any dietary or nutritional problems when I grew up as a vegetarian there.

SaddledBounding 4y ago
It's because the grandparent comment has misconceptions about nutrition, including that animal products are necessary for a healthful diet and how much protein is required for a healthful diet. The first misconception is contradicted by extensive analysis by health organizations such as [Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics][1]. Healthful vegan diets are no less healthful than healthful non-vegan diets. The second misconception is about how much protein is needed in a healthful diet. Many people wildly overestimate how much protein a person needs, especially when strength training. It is not difficult to get sufficient protein within a given calorie budget while on a vegan diet, even without using protein supplements. For instance, tofu and seitan have protein to calorie ratios similar to meat, with seitan often having a higher protein to calorie ratio than most meats. [1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
- rcarr 4y ago
  Go and have a look at the amino acid profiles of seitan and tofu and also their bioavailability in comparison to meat and vegetarian protein sources. And you can talk all you want about people overestimating protein macro but 1 to 2 grams per lb of bodyweight has consistently shown to be optimal. You’ll be hard pressed to find any high performing athlete who isn’t aiming for that outside of endurance sports. At the end of the day in my experience, a vegan diet is both a lot more hard work and less healthy than a non vegan one. Saying that a vegan diet isn’t any less healthy than a meat eating or vegetarian one is an absolute joke, especially considering there are no vegan foods containing vitamin B12 outside of yeast flakes and artificial supplements.
  - jablala 4y ago
    Amino acids - it's suboptimal to eat only one source of protein. I suppose more so on for a vegan. Just as well no one does that. Of they do you're no longer attributing "poor amino acid profiles" to veganism as you are to the person responsible for terrible diet. B12 - Animal products come from animals filled to the brim with B12 supplements, of which a huge majority of global B12 supplements go towards livestock. Also along with over lovely concoctions of antibiotics and drugs. There's nothing wrong with cutting out the middle-man! Not least when so many flesh eaters are also deficient in B12 themselves. In need of taking the same B-complex as vegans.
heavyset_go 4y ago
If you're body building or doing serious exercise, it can be hard to get the protein your body needs to recover and build muscle on a strictly vegan diet. I've tried it and it's difficult.
- Arnavion 4y ago
  You've simply restated rcarr's point without answering my question.
- CHB0403085482 4y ago
  How does beans, egg, milk compare to animal meat protein? https://www.mondaycampaigns.org/meatless-monday https://www.mondaycampaigns.org/meatless-monday
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    Eggs and milk aren't vegan
- myshpa 4y ago
  Hard to get the protein? That's the oldest excuse in the book. Debunked endlessly. Simply not true. https://www.peta.org/living/food/vegan-bodybuilders/ https://www.peta.org/living/food/vegan-bodybuilders/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganbodybuilding/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganbodybuilding/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/8y4noz/vegan_diet_for_bodybuilders_i_dont_believe_its/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/8y4noz/vegan_... https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-bodybuilding/ https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-... https://plantbasedfaqs.com/protein-in-beans-vs-meat/ https://plantbasedfaqs.com/protein-in-beans-vs-meat/ And millions of other sources.
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    > Since I bet you don't want to only eat beans, you'll probably want to take a pea protein supplement to replace the whey supplement. These cost about the same, but vary depending on location. Also, a vegan diet will be higher in carbs and lower in fat, unless you supplement with a lot of protein powder and eat a lot of nuts. Your own source admits that it is difficult to get enough protein in a vegan diet without supplementation. I'm on a medication that increases my insulin response, and I can't eat 400+ grams of carbohydrates a day just to get ~100 grams of protein without both getting fat and putting myself at risk of pre-diabetes. > https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-bodybuilding/ https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-... Many of these are just carbohydrates. One of the recipes is literally just overnight oats, others are full of bread, grains and other carbohydrates with little to no protein at all.
rcarr 4y ago
Vegetarian is easier than vegan but still more difficult if you want to be lean E.g sub 15% or at the more extreme end 10% body fat. You can separate yolks and white to get lean protein from eggs. And with milk you can get skimmed milk to avoid the fat (but milk is still absolutely loaded with carbohydrates so some people argue that it is actually more beneficial to drink full fat or semi milk to buffer the carb dump somewhat. The other thing to consider is amino acid profile. Milk and eggs have a full amino acid profile but vegan sources are normally incomplete. This means to get all the protein your body needs you have to consume multiple protein sources. And bioavailability: just because you consume 1g of protein doesn’t mean your body can necessarily use that entire gram. Vegan proteins tend to have the lowest bioavailability, often in the 0.7 to 0.8 range meaning you have to consume more of them for the same result. Which is problematic as it means you’re now consuming more carbs and fats knocking your macros further out of whack. It is doable, it is just very hard work. Here is a vegan bodybuilder with 13.7% body fat percentage after 4 years. https://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/a33807797/bodybuilder-vegan-diet-plant-based-4-years-body-results-video/ https://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/a33807797/bodybuilder-v... The other thing complicating matters nowadays is steroids, SARMS and TRT. If people are on them it makes life significantly easier: there were studies done that showed people on steroids doing absolutely nothing (no workouts whatsoever) still built more muscle than people who were natural (no steroids) doing hours of hard bodybuilding gym workouts. They are absolutely rampant, far more than people realise. For what it’s worth looking at this guy, I don’t think he’s doing roids. His physique is achievable without them. But I might be wrong. Also, heart disease is absolutely rampant in India. So not the best country to be using as an example.
- rafaelero 4y ago
  Most people don't care about being body builders, so I am not sure why you are getting into this topic. Every reputable nutritional organization says vegetarian / vegan diet is ok and on top of that the longest living populations are mostly eating plant-based diet, suggesting they are not only nutritionally appropriate, but also desirable in order to maintain body function over time.
  - rcarr 4y ago

SaddledBounding 4y ago

It's because the grandparent comment has misconceptions about nutrition, including that animal products are necessary for a healthful diet and how much protein is required for a healthful diet. The first misconception is contradicted by extensive analysis by health organizations such as [Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics][1]. Healthful vegan diets are no less healthful than healthful non-vegan diets. The second misconception is about how much protein is needed in a healthful diet. Many people wildly overestimate how much protein a person needs, especially when strength training. It is not difficult to get sufficient protein within a given calorie budget while on a vegan diet, even without using protein supplements. For instance, tofu and seitan have protein to calorie ratios similar to meat, with seitan often having a higher protein to calorie ratio than most meats. [1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/

rcarr 4y ago
Go and have a look at the amino acid profiles of seitan and tofu and also their bioavailability in comparison to meat and vegetarian protein sources. And you can talk all you want about people overestimating protein macro but 1 to 2 grams per lb of bodyweight has consistently shown to be optimal. You’ll be hard pressed to find any high performing athlete who isn’t aiming for that outside of endurance sports. At the end of the day in my experience, a vegan diet is both a lot more hard work and less healthy than a non vegan one. Saying that a vegan diet isn’t any less healthy than a meat eating or vegetarian one is an absolute joke, especially considering there are no vegan foods containing vitamin B12 outside of yeast flakes and artificial supplements.
- jablala 4y ago
  Amino acids - it's suboptimal to eat only one source of protein. I suppose more so on for a vegan. Just as well no one does that. Of they do you're no longer attributing "poor amino acid profiles" to veganism as you are to the person responsible for terrible diet. B12 - Animal products come from animals filled to the brim with B12 supplements, of which a huge majority of global B12 supplements go towards livestock. Also along with over lovely concoctions of antibiotics and drugs. There's nothing wrong with cutting out the middle-man! Not least when so many flesh eaters are also deficient in B12 themselves. In need of taking the same B-complex as vegans.

heavyset_go 4y ago

If you're body building or doing serious exercise, it can be hard to get the protein your body needs to recover and build muscle on a strictly vegan diet. I've tried it and it's difficult.

Arnavion 4y ago
You've simply restated rcarr's point without answering my question.
CHB0403085482 4y ago
How does beans, egg, milk compare to animal meat protein? https://www.mondaycampaigns.org/meatless-monday https://www.mondaycampaigns.org/meatless-monday
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  Eggs and milk aren't vegan
myshpa 4y ago
Hard to get the protein? That's the oldest excuse in the book. Debunked endlessly. Simply not true. https://www.peta.org/living/food/vegan-bodybuilders/ https://www.peta.org/living/food/vegan-bodybuilders/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganbodybuilding/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganbodybuilding/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/8y4noz/vegan_diet_for_bodybuilders_i_dont_believe_its/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/8y4noz/vegan_... https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-bodybuilding/ https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-... https://plantbasedfaqs.com/protein-in-beans-vs-meat/ https://plantbasedfaqs.com/protein-in-beans-vs-meat/ And millions of other sources.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  > Since I bet you don't want to only eat beans, you'll probably want to take a pea protein supplement to replace the whey supplement. These cost about the same, but vary depending on location. Also, a vegan diet will be higher in carbs and lower in fat, unless you supplement with a lot of protein powder and eat a lot of nuts. Your own source admits that it is difficult to get enough protein in a vegan diet without supplementation. I'm on a medication that increases my insulin response, and I can't eat 400+ grams of carbohydrates a day just to get ~100 grams of protein without both getting fat and putting myself at risk of pre-diabetes. > https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-bodybuilding/ https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-... Many of these are just carbohydrates. One of the recipes is literally just overnight oats, others are full of bread, grains and other carbohydrates with little to no protein at all.

rcarr 4y ago

Vegetarian is easier than vegan but still more difficult if you want to be lean E.g sub 15% or at the more extreme end 10% body fat. You can separate yolks and white to get lean protein from eggs. And with milk you can get skimmed milk to avoid the fat (but milk is still absolutely loaded with carbohydrates so some people argue that it is actually more beneficial to drink full fat or semi milk to buffer the carb dump somewhat. The other thing to consider is amino acid profile. Milk and eggs have a full amino acid profile but vegan sources are normally incomplete. This means to get all the protein your body needs you have to consume multiple protein sources. And bioavailability: just because you consume 1g of protein doesn’t mean your body can necessarily use that entire gram. Vegan proteins tend to have the lowest bioavailability, often in the 0.7 to 0.8 range meaning you have to consume more of them for the same result. Which is problematic as it means you’re now consuming more carbs and fats knocking your macros further out of whack. It is doable, it is just very hard work. Here is a vegan bodybuilder with 13.7% body fat percentage after 4 years. https://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/a33807797/bodybuilder-vegan-diet-plant-based-4-years-body-results-video/ https://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/a33807797/bodybuilder-v... The other thing complicating matters nowadays is steroids, SARMS and TRT. If people are on them it makes life significantly easier: there were studies done that showed people on steroids doing absolutely nothing (no workouts whatsoever) still built more muscle than people who were natural (no steroids) doing hours of hard bodybuilding gym workouts. They are absolutely rampant, far more than people realise. For what it’s worth looking at this guy, I don’t think he’s doing roids. His physique is achievable without them. But I might be wrong. Also, heart disease is absolutely rampant in India. So not the best country to be using as an example.

rafaelero 4y ago
Most people don't care about being body builders, so I am not sure why you are getting into this topic. Every reputable nutritional organization says vegetarian / vegan diet is ok and on top of that the longest living populations are mostly eating plant-based diet, suggesting they are not only nutritionally appropriate, but also desirable in order to maintain body function over time.
- rcarr 4y ago