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What's your definition of destroy and do you have any examples of ecosystems that were destroyed by wind and solar?

pclmulqdq 4y ago
Cutting down large swathes of forest and building over the habitats of endangered species happen for both. Solar and wind farms both need large land clearances in areas that have a lot of their respective kind of energy, which animals also use. Solar farms do best in deserts, which tend to be habitats for species that like extreme conditions. Several of them have been blocked in recent years. There was a recent huge solar project that was planned to cover most of the land area that an endangered desert tortoise inhabits. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-solar/exclusive-sierra-club-sues-over-california-solar-plant-idUSTRE70432N20110105 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-solar/exclusive-sierra-cl... https://news.bloomberglaw.com/environment-and-energy/massive-desert-solar-project-experiment-in-tortoise-survival https://news.bloomberglaw.com/environment-and-energy/massive... Aside from the large swathes of forest that have to be cut down for wind farms, birds of prey tend to fly into the blades of wind turbines. These are also often endangered species. The fish and wildlife survey estimates 140,000-500,000 bird deaths at wind farms per year, with most of these being birds of prey which have low birth rates and high conservation value (many endangered species). In contrast, cats kill billions of birds per year, but they are common small birds, not endangered predator species. In addition, something like 800,000 bats are killed by wind turbines. https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/wsb.260 https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/wsb... The solution, for solar, is obviously installations on top of human structures, like roofs and roads (but not on the road surface, which is silly). For wind, there isn't a good solution that doesn't hurt predator bird populations.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  Pretty much any human activity affects the ecosystem of animals and plants. It's a matter of weighing the pro's and the cons. You link to an article from 2010, I don't exactly know which plant you refer to but I did find that a solar plant (Ivanpah) was built around that time and this was done by taking into account the tortoise territory. They decided not to build where the tortoise territory was. There is also recent work being done by environmentalists to help guide solar panel placement in the Mojave desert. https://medium.com/wild-without-end/the-tortoise-and-the-solar-panel-5fd8c0a93385 https://medium.com/wild-without-end/the-tortoise-and-the-sol... > These are also often endangered species. The fish and wildlife survey estimates 140,000-500,000 bird deaths at wind farms per year, with most of these being birds of prey which have low birth rates and high conservation value (many endangered species). The article you linked mentions 573k birds and 80k being birds of prey, that's 14% and not "most". It also mentions there is a need for better measuring methods, it's a bit old now so they likely have gotten better at it too. This is an area of active research so efforts to reduce birds collisions are being worked on.
kennend3 4y ago
At the end of the day, the real issue is "NIMBY". Solar - sure we will protest that: https://barrie.ctvnews.ca/solar-project-demonstration-in-tay-township-1.1790693 https://barrie.ctvnews.ca/solar-project-demonstration-in-tay... Wind - yep... people will protest that: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-wind-power-opponents-protest-in-toronto-1.791208 https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-wind-power-opponents-prot... Nuclear? Of course: https://globalnews.ca/news/4298298/protesters-rally-pickering-decommission-nuclear-power-plant/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4298298/protesters-rally-pickerin... So.. when those people go home, what do they think powers the lights?
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Different people protest each thing. The only thing nobody is protesting is natural gas, which is green in Germany.
  - cinntaile 4y ago
    This is not true. People protest against everything, gas is no exception. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/germany-lng-energy-crisis-1.6549991 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/germany-lng-energy-crisis-1.65...

Cutting down large swathes of forest and building over the habitats of endangered species happen for both. Solar and wind farms both need large land clearances in areas that have a lot of their respective kind of energy, which animals also use. Solar farms do best in deserts, which tend to be habitats for species that like extreme conditions. Several of them have been blocked in recent years. There was a recent huge solar project that was planned to cover most of the land area that an endangered desert tortoise inhabits. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-solar/exclusive-sierra-club-sues-over-california-solar-plant-idUSTRE70432N20110105 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-solar/exclusive-sierra-cl... https://news.bloomberglaw.com/environment-and-energy/massive-desert-solar-project-experiment-in-tortoise-survival https://news.bloomberglaw.com/environment-and-energy/massive... Aside from the large swathes of forest that have to be cut down for wind farms, birds of prey tend to fly into the blades of wind turbines. These are also often endangered species. The fish and wildlife survey estimates 140,000-500,000 bird deaths at wind farms per year, with most of these being birds of prey which have low birth rates and high conservation value (many endangered species). In contrast, cats kill billions of birds per year, but they are common small birds, not endangered predator species. In addition, something like 800,000 bats are killed by wind turbines. https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/wsb.260 https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/wsb... The solution, for solar, is obviously installations on top of human structures, like roofs and roads (but not on the road surface, which is silly). For wind, there isn't a good solution that doesn't hurt predator bird populations.

cinntaile 4y ago
Pretty much any human activity affects the ecosystem of animals and plants. It's a matter of weighing the pro's and the cons. You link to an article from 2010, I don't exactly know which plant you refer to but I did find that a solar plant (Ivanpah) was built around that time and this was done by taking into account the tortoise territory. They decided not to build where the tortoise territory was. There is also recent work being done by environmentalists to help guide solar panel placement in the Mojave desert. https://medium.com/wild-without-end/the-tortoise-and-the-solar-panel-5fd8c0a93385 https://medium.com/wild-without-end/the-tortoise-and-the-sol... > These are also often endangered species. The fish and wildlife survey estimates 140,000-500,000 bird deaths at wind farms per year, with most of these being birds of prey which have low birth rates and high conservation value (many endangered species). The article you linked mentions 573k birds and 80k being birds of prey, that's 14% and not "most". It also mentions there is a need for better measuring methods, it's a bit old now so they likely have gotten better at it too. This is an area of active research so efforts to reduce birds collisions are being worked on.

kennend3 4y ago

At the end of the day, the real issue is "NIMBY". Solar - sure we will protest that: https://barrie.ctvnews.ca/solar-project-demonstration-in-tay-township-1.1790693 https://barrie.ctvnews.ca/solar-project-demonstration-in-tay... Wind - yep... people will protest that: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-wind-power-opponents-protest-in-toronto-1.791208 https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-wind-power-opponents-prot... Nuclear? Of course: https://globalnews.ca/news/4298298/protesters-rally-pickering-decommission-nuclear-power-plant/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4298298/protesters-rally-pickerin... So.. when those people go home, what do they think powers the lights?

pclmulqdq 4y ago
Different people protest each thing. The only thing nobody is protesting is natural gas, which is green in Germany.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  This is not true. People protest against everything, gas is no exception. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/germany-lng-energy-crisis-1.6549991 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/germany-lng-energy-crisis-1.65...