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Producing that amount of heat with gas would still be better than using electricity.

by bo0tzz 4y ago

vanilla_nut 4y ago
Depends on the generation method. If OP's using solar panels, it's a net positive. If their power is largely generated by nuclear or hydro, also a net positive. If it's generated by fossil fuels, agreed.
mrob 4y ago
Infrared heaters are just resistive heaters with reflectors to redirect the radiation to where it's needed. You can aim one at yourself while you're working to remain comfortable even when the rest of the room is cold. This can sometimes be cheaper than running a heat pump to heat the whole room.
tesseract 4y ago
In practice, electrical heating is is often spot heating in one room or even aimed directly at a person - a niche that isn't really served by indoor gas-fueled heating appliances.
hedora 4y ago
If they were heating the same area, then they'd have probably replaced their furnace. Europeans have been buying record numbers of air to air heat pumps this year. Even with transmission and conversion losses, their coefficient of power is high enough to use less natural gas than directly burning it would.
kube-system 4y ago
You might think it's impossible to beat a modern 98% efficient gas furnace, but electric heat pumps can have effective efficiencies greater than 100%. (sometimes 200% or 300%!) They can do this because they "steal" heat energy from outside (yes, even in the cold winter air)
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  Yes, but if the electricity is made from gas, then 300% efficiency of heat pump is better than 98% efficient heat furnace only if generation efficiency is at least 33%. Heat pumps are pretty great, but as of today, they are by no means necessarily more efficient than burning gas directly for heat, at least when it comes to GHG emissions. In fact, in very cold climates where air temperature is below freezing most of the time, air-source heat pumps are highly unlikely to be more efficient than just burning gas, unless we move wholesale to nuclear for electricity (solar won’t help you during winter, and wind is too fickle to solely depend on).
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    > only if generation efficiency is at least 33%. the efficiency of a combined cycle gas generator is usually 50-60%.
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      Then it depends on what portion of the electricity mix is CCG instead of simple gas turbines or coal, what’s the actual efficiency of heat pump (you won’t get 300% when it’s subzero temperature) etc. Point is, air source heat pumps are really not much, or even necessarily at all more efficient than just burning gas directly at home, it all depends.
      - bryanlarsen 4y ago
        at >50% efficiency, the heat pump heat factor has to drop below 2. On a modern heat pump that's about -25C or so. I don't think it gets that cold in Germany.
- brnt 4y ago
  Moving heat is always cheaper than creating it. Also, gas furnaces get those 99+% efficiencies only at input=output (ie no heating) temperature. Most radiators require a water temperature well north of 50C to emit the power required, and for decades gas furnaces were thus set to default output temperatures of 70-80C. At that point, the maximum thermodynamic efficiency (which is a curve as function of temperature differential, with the optimum at Tdiff=0, ie no technical improvements are going to improve this) is more like 70-80%. Actually, a cheap way to get a ~10% gas bill reduction is to change the output temp to 50C (if yours runs at 70+) and see if your radiators still can emit enough heat to reach your desired room temperature. Long term, heat pumps are the only sane choice. Burning gas in a plant and running a heat pump off its electricity is more efficient that burning it yourself. In fact, as of next year (or was is 2024?) any gas furnace must be replace with at minimum a hybrid heat pump here in the Netherlands.

Producing that amount of heat with gas would still be better than using electricity.

by bo0tzz 4y ago

Producing that amount of heat with gas would still be better than using electricity.

Depends on the generation method. If OP's using solar panels, it's a net positive. If their power is largely generated by nuclear or hydro, also a net positive. If it's generated by fossil fuels, agreed.

mrob 4y ago

Infrared heaters are just resistive heaters with reflectors to redirect the radiation to where it's needed. You can aim one at yourself while you're working to remain comfortable even when the rest of the room is cold. This can sometimes be cheaper than running a heat pump to heat the whole room.

tesseract 4y ago

In practice, electrical heating is is often spot heating in one room or even aimed directly at a person - a niche that isn't really served by indoor gas-fueled heating appliances.

hedora 4y ago

If they were heating the same area, then they'd have probably replaced their furnace. Europeans have been buying record numbers of air to air heat pumps this year. Even with transmission and conversion losses, their coefficient of power is high enough to use less natural gas than directly burning it would.

kube-system 4y ago

You might think it's impossible to beat a modern 98% efficient gas furnace, but electric heat pumps can have effective efficiencies greater than 100%. (sometimes 200% or 300%!) They can do this because they "steal" heat energy from outside (yes, even in the cold winter air)

xyzzyz 4y ago
Yes, but if the electricity is made from gas, then 300% efficiency of heat pump is better than 98% efficient heat furnace only if generation efficiency is at least 33%. Heat pumps are pretty great, but as of today, they are by no means necessarily more efficient than burning gas directly for heat, at least when it comes to GHG emissions. In fact, in very cold climates where air temperature is below freezing most of the time, air-source heat pumps are highly unlikely to be more efficient than just burning gas, unless we move wholesale to nuclear for electricity (solar won’t help you during winter, and wind is too fickle to solely depend on).
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  > only if generation efficiency is at least 33%. the efficiency of a combined cycle gas generator is usually 50-60%.
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    Then it depends on what portion of the electricity mix is CCG instead of simple gas turbines or coal, what’s the actual efficiency of heat pump (you won’t get 300% when it’s subzero temperature) etc. Point is, air source heat pumps are really not much, or even necessarily at all more efficient than just burning gas directly at home, it all depends.
    - bryanlarsen 4y ago
      at >50% efficiency, the heat pump heat factor has to drop below 2. On a modern heat pump that's about -25C or so. I don't think it gets that cold in Germany.
brnt 4y ago
Moving heat is always cheaper than creating it. Also, gas furnaces get those 99+% efficiencies only at input=output (ie no heating) temperature. Most radiators require a water temperature well north of 50C to emit the power required, and for decades gas furnaces were thus set to default output temperatures of 70-80C. At that point, the maximum thermodynamic efficiency (which is a curve as function of temperature differential, with the optimum at Tdiff=0, ie no technical improvements are going to improve this) is more like 70-80%. Actually, a cheap way to get a ~10% gas bill reduction is to change the output temp to 50C (if yours runs at 70+) and see if your radiators still can emit enough heat to reach your desired room temperature. Long term, heat pumps are the only sane choice. Burning gas in a plant and running a heat pump off its electricity is more efficient that burning it yourself. In fact, as of next year (or was is 2024?) any gas furnace must be replace with at minimum a hybrid heat pump here in the Netherlands.