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OK, what are the alternatives? - Bribing the politicians to do something (with what money)? - Having someone run on the political platform of building a green

OK, what are the alternatives? - Bribing the politicians to do something (with what money)? - Having someone run on the political platform of building a greener future, while competing with turbocharged, lobby-backed candidates that want the exact opposite? - Having those companies clean up their conduct (with what effective regulators)? - Having better coverage in the media of matters related to climate change, to raise awareness and convince people that this is an emergency (with what media that's not owned by old pro-fossil billionaires)? Raising awareness in this way may be stupid, but it's an avenue to at least get people talking for a few seconds.

DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y ago
An alternative is for people to blame themselves, the consumer. Oil companies won't produce oil if no one is using it. Everyone is blaming and pointing fingers at other people to do something.
- svnt 4y ago
  Try buying food and having a social life without acquiring plastic or burning coal or gas, directly or indirectly. They can control the supply side, and have. Putting the blame on the consumer is what happened in the 90s. The consumer can do nothing but hoard soda bottles to keep them from landfills at this point.
  - MandieD 4y ago
    Or we can drink a lot less soda and other bottle drinks. Tap water is better for your body, bank account, and world.
    - svnt 4y ago
      Agreed — my example was intended to be mildly hyperbolic.
    - selfhoster11 4y ago
      Tap water is not safe to drink everywhere, but even if I don’t drink bottled water - that’s still a drop in the bucket next to huge corporations that churn out plastic products by the ton.
CM30 4y ago
Protesting in a way that governments can't ignore? Like imagine if instead of doing this to a random painting or sitting in a road, they blocked the door into congress, the white house, the house of commons, etc? That would get far more attention and press than vandalising a statue or painting or sitting in a road.
- svnt 4y ago
  You cannot “block the door” into congress or the white house. You cannot get close enough to do it. Even if you did, you would not accomplish anything as the buildings are resilient to spofs at this point.
- owisd 4y ago
  They have done these things and it hasn't gotten more attention, hence why you've not heard of it. And hence art galleries : https://news.sky.com/story/extinction-rebellion-protesters-superglue-themselves-around-speakers-chair-in-commons-12687662 https://news.sky.com/story/extinction-rebellion-protesters-s... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11306813/Now-Just-Stop-Oil-eco-zealots-glue-road-outside-Downing-Street.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11306813/Now-Just-S...
  - seti0Cha 4y ago
    Have you heard the joke about the drunk man looking for his keys under the streetlight? A cop comes along and starts helping him, but they don't find the keys. The cop asks "Are you sure you lost them here?" The drunk says, "no I lost them over there, but the light's better here."
insanitybit 4y ago
Murdering executives? If you're going to be an eco terrorist be an eco terrorist. This is just useless. Or if you don't want to go that far, maybe a protest that actually brings information to people who need it?
- svnt 4y ago
  I think it’s reasonable to decline murdering people as a protest practice. Who fits your second group? Who is it that needs the information that doesn’t have it already?
  - insanitybit 4y ago
    > I think it’s reasonable to decline murdering people as a protest practice. If you say so. > Who fits your second group? Who is it that needs the information that doesn’t have it already? Climate change deniers, of course. Go engage with them. It can't be any more pointless than fucking up some painting.
    - svnt 4y ago
      Getting their opposition to engage with the brainwashed denier masses is exactly what the money wants. They can leverage money and scale to convert and you can’t. Hitting them in the art is a bit of class-oriented warning, and if you don’t see the subtlety of what’s happening I’d argue that’s on you. edit: Not that I’m not sympathetic. I spent 2019 in a dark place admiring the folks who managed to shut down that UK airport just by flying drones.
      - insanitybit 4y ago
        > Hitting them in the art is a bit of class-oriented warning, and if you don’t see the subtlety of what’s happening I’d argue that’s on you. Sorry but this is just so naive. First of all this is not a "rich vs poor" issue. Lots of people who I suspect you'd consider to be "rich" are very much on the side of climate change action. Second, the very select few rich people who are making these decisions aren't taking this as a warning. Third, you are making the seemingly common mistake of thinking that art is for the rich - it is not. Art in your personal home may be for the rich, but this is in a museum that is publicly accessible. > if you don’t see the subtlety of what’s happening I’d argue that’s on you. I mean, it's kind of on them... It's on them to get their message across. > Getting their opposition to engage with the brainwashed denier masses is exactly what the money wants. They can leverage money and scale to convert and you can’t. OK so you're saying that we can't engage with the opposition and instead we should use subtle "class oriented" scare tactics? None of this makes sense.
bell-cot 4y ago
How about taking a page from the political playbook of the U.S.'s NRA (National Rifle Association, an extremely pro-gun group in recent decades) - keep detailed records of how every politician votes (on climate laws, vs. the NRA's focus on gun laws), then zealously turn out to vote in every election? That gave the NRA political influence far beyond what their membership numbers would suggest, decades before America's current culture wars had really heated up. Of course, that would also require some real work, and a grown-up attention span. Vs. "I scream for full gratification NOW" performative activism, which has seemed the default for kids since at least the 1960's.

DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y ago

An alternative is for people to blame themselves, the consumer. Oil companies won't produce oil if no one is using it. Everyone is blaming and pointing fingers at other people to do something.

svnt 4y ago
Try buying food and having a social life without acquiring plastic or burning coal or gas, directly or indirectly. They can control the supply side, and have. Putting the blame on the consumer is what happened in the 90s. The consumer can do nothing but hoard soda bottles to keep them from landfills at this point.
- MandieD 4y ago
  Or we can drink a lot less soda and other bottle drinks. Tap water is better for your body, bank account, and world.
  - svnt 4y ago
    Agreed — my example was intended to be mildly hyperbolic.
  - selfhoster11 4y ago
    Tap water is not safe to drink everywhere, but even if I don’t drink bottled water - that’s still a drop in the bucket next to huge corporations that churn out plastic products by the ton.

CM30 4y ago

Protesting in a way that governments can't ignore? Like imagine if instead of doing this to a random painting or sitting in a road, they blocked the door into congress, the white house, the house of commons, etc? That would get far more attention and press than vandalising a statue or painting or sitting in a road.

svnt 4y ago
You cannot “block the door” into congress or the white house. You cannot get close enough to do it. Even if you did, you would not accomplish anything as the buildings are resilient to spofs at this point.
owisd 4y ago
They have done these things and it hasn't gotten more attention, hence why you've not heard of it. And hence art galleries : https://news.sky.com/story/extinction-rebellion-protesters-superglue-themselves-around-speakers-chair-in-commons-12687662 https://news.sky.com/story/extinction-rebellion-protesters-s... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11306813/Now-Just-Stop-Oil-eco-zealots-glue-road-outside-Downing-Street.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11306813/Now-Just-S...
- seti0Cha 4y ago
  Have you heard the joke about the drunk man looking for his keys under the streetlight? A cop comes along and starts helping him, but they don't find the keys. The cop asks "Are you sure you lost them here?" The drunk says, "no I lost them over there, but the light's better here."

insanitybit 4y ago

Murdering executives? If you're going to be an eco terrorist be an eco terrorist. This is just useless. Or if you don't want to go that far, maybe a protest that actually brings information to people who need it?

svnt 4y ago
I think it’s reasonable to decline murdering people as a protest practice. Who fits your second group? Who is it that needs the information that doesn’t have it already?
- insanitybit 4y ago
  > I think it’s reasonable to decline murdering people as a protest practice. If you say so. > Who fits your second group? Who is it that needs the information that doesn’t have it already? Climate change deniers, of course. Go engage with them. It can't be any more pointless than fucking up some painting.
  - svnt 4y ago
    Getting their opposition to engage with the brainwashed denier masses is exactly what the money wants. They can leverage money and scale to convert and you can’t. Hitting them in the art is a bit of class-oriented warning, and if you don’t see the subtlety of what’s happening I’d argue that’s on you. edit: Not that I’m not sympathetic. I spent 2019 in a dark place admiring the folks who managed to shut down that UK airport just by flying drones.
    - insanitybit 4y ago
      > Hitting them in the art is a bit of class-oriented warning, and if you don’t see the subtlety of what’s happening I’d argue that’s on you. Sorry but this is just so naive. First of all this is not a "rich vs poor" issue. Lots of people who I suspect you'd consider to be "rich" are very much on the side of climate change action. Second, the very select few rich people who are making these decisions aren't taking this as a warning. Third, you are making the seemingly common mistake of thinking that art is for the rich - it is not. Art in your personal home may be for the rich, but this is in a museum that is publicly accessible. > if you don’t see the subtlety of what’s happening I’d argue that’s on you. I mean, it's kind of on them... It's on them to get their message across. > Getting their opposition to engage with the brainwashed denier masses is exactly what the money wants. They can leverage money and scale to convert and you can’t. OK so you're saying that we can't engage with the opposition and instead we should use subtle "class oriented" scare tactics? None of this makes sense.

bell-cot 4y ago

How about taking a page from the political playbook of the U.S.'s NRA (National Rifle Association, an extremely pro-gun group in recent decades) - keep detailed records of how every politician votes (on climate laws, vs. the NRA's focus on gun laws), then zealously turn out to vote in every election? That gave the NRA political influence far beyond what their membership numbers would suggest, decades before America's current culture wars had really heated up. Of course, that would also require some real work, and a grown-up attention span. Vs. "I scream for full gratification NOW" performative activism, which has seemed the default for kids since at least the 1960's.