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It's the same with electricity markets: at times there's so much wind and nuclear power that the spot price goes below zero in Europe as well as in the US: http

It's the same with electricity markets: at times there's so much wind and nuclear power that the spot price goes below zero in Europe as well as in the US: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666792421000652 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266679242... I still pay around 5 cents/kWh to the middlemen though so consumption hasn't been profitable to me so far.

leobg 4y ago
Where are you based if you are paying five cents? Here in Germany, I pay 10 times that much.
- legulere 4y ago
  The cost for the electricity net was around 7.5 cents in Germany last year: https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Artikel/Energie/strompreise-bestandteile.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Artikel/Energie/strompreise...
- loufe 4y ago
  I paid only slightly more than that in Québec, Canada. The province is blessed with a superabundance of hydroelectric potential and thankfully the infrastructure is in well-managed government hands.
- tuukkah 4y ago
  In Helsinki, Finland, we pay 4 cents/kWh to the local grid company. Then on top of that, everyone has a contract with an electricity supplier of their choosing, and mine charges 0.9 ¢/kWh on top of the hourly spot price. (My previous supplier charged a fixed price and went bankrupt due to the current crisis.) The spot price in Finland is somewhat linked to the prices of the neighbouring Sweden, Norway and Estonia. Recently, it has varied with -0.1 and 93 ¢/kWh as the extremes and the average around 15 ¢/kWh (night-time lows included).
  - leobg 4y ago
    So can I run a line to your house, please?
    - tuukkah 4y ago
      It might be more practical to invest in solar and wind. I hear solar can be profitable even here in the north.
      - leobg 4y ago
        Unfortunately not in winter though, I think.
        tuukkah 4y ago
        Apparently and surprisingly, the biggest issue is not the darkness but cleaning the panels from frost and after snowfall. On the positive side, subzero temperatures increase the photovoltaic efficiency, white snow increases the amount of light hitting the panels, and the demand is highest during the cold, calm and sunny winter weather type. https://www.oulu.fi/en/blogs/science-arctic-attitude/potentiality-solar-energy-arctic https://www.oulu.fi/en/blogs/science-arctic-attitude/potenti...
        leobg 4y ago
        Very interesting. Thank you.
thaumasiotes 4y ago
> at times there's so much wind and nuclear power Isn't the amount of nuclear power constant?
- ajross 4y ago
  Yes, but demand isn't. And nuclear can't be trivially shut down, the reactor stays hot for quite a while and that energy needs to go somewhere (which is the whole point of the iconic giant cooling towers these plants have). So if demand drops rapidly and your reactors are going full tilt, the price of electricity goes to zero.
  - pfdietz 4y ago
    More importantly: xenon poisoning.
- tuukkah 4y ago
  Yes and no: yes in the sense that they can't quickly power down when wind would suffice, no in the sense that they suffer both regular and unplanned shutdowns with an average load factor of 80%.

leobg 4y ago

Where are you based if you are paying five cents? Here in Germany, I pay 10 times that much.

legulere 4y ago
The cost for the electricity net was around 7.5 cents in Germany last year: https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Artikel/Energie/strompreise-bestandteile.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Artikel/Energie/strompreise...
loufe 4y ago
I paid only slightly more than that in Québec, Canada. The province is blessed with a superabundance of hydroelectric potential and thankfully the infrastructure is in well-managed government hands.
tuukkah 4y ago
In Helsinki, Finland, we pay 4 cents/kWh to the local grid company. Then on top of that, everyone has a contract with an electricity supplier of their choosing, and mine charges 0.9 ¢/kWh on top of the hourly spot price. (My previous supplier charged a fixed price and went bankrupt due to the current crisis.) The spot price in Finland is somewhat linked to the prices of the neighbouring Sweden, Norway and Estonia. Recently, it has varied with -0.1 and 93 ¢/kWh as the extremes and the average around 15 ¢/kWh (night-time lows included).
- leobg 4y ago
  So can I run a line to your house, please?
  - tuukkah 4y ago
    It might be more practical to invest in solar and wind. I hear solar can be profitable even here in the north.
    - leobg 4y ago
      Unfortunately not in winter though, I think.
      - tuukkah 4y ago
        Apparently and surprisingly, the biggest issue is not the darkness but cleaning the panels from frost and after snowfall. On the positive side, subzero temperatures increase the photovoltaic efficiency, white snow increases the amount of light hitting the panels, and the demand is highest during the cold, calm and sunny winter weather type. https://www.oulu.fi/en/blogs/science-arctic-attitude/potentiality-solar-energy-arctic https://www.oulu.fi/en/blogs/science-arctic-attitude/potenti...
        leobg 4y ago
        Very interesting. Thank you.

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> at times there's so much wind and nuclear power Isn't the amount of nuclear power constant?

ajross 4y ago
Yes, but demand isn't. And nuclear can't be trivially shut down, the reactor stays hot for quite a while and that energy needs to go somewhere (which is the whole point of the iconic giant cooling towers these plants have). So if demand drops rapidly and your reactors are going full tilt, the price of electricity goes to zero.
- pfdietz 4y ago
  More importantly: xenon poisoning.
tuukkah 4y ago
Yes and no: yes in the sense that they can't quickly power down when wind would suffice, no in the sense that they suffer both regular and unplanned shutdowns with an average load factor of 80%.