7 ms·

Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep (2021)

111 points by lukas099 4y ago

tardibear 4y ago
(2021)
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
AlphaWeaver 4y ago
https://xkcd.com/269/ https://xkcd.com/269/
nomel 4y ago
I don't have access, but I believe this is the PDF, based on the title: https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(21)00059-2 https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(...
karencarits 4y ago
Citing the conclusion of a detailed comment on pubpeer (https://pubpeer.com/publications/AB8B5472EB1E3301B3581AA7EDB750 https://pubpeer.com/publications/AB8B5472EB1E3301B3581AA7EDB...): > a highly-selective analysis of highly selected participants shows that a small minority of them seem able to respond to simple questions while they sleep. the stats here are a mess.
- giantg2 4y ago
  I don't think the stats were the point. The conclusion isn't about quantifying it. It's essentially a binary existence statement and "we found this phenomenon that needs more research".
- radu_floricica 4y ago
  Like giantg2 said. There are (at least) two types of studies: this is purely exploratory, proof-of-concept type. The reason "a group of british scientists" studies got such a bad reputation is because they were largely aimed at finding out new stuff, but got presented by the press as the proving things. For discovery (or university science play) you're good with samples of 10-20 people. For proving stuff you need meta-analysis of several studies, ideally including RTCs and a couple of large longitudinal ones. shrug science is complicated. Some stuff about how to do it properly has been leaking into the water supply, but overall public opinion is pretty much detached from the details and still thinks a study is a study.
sorokod 4y ago
Has been mentioned in a recent The Joy of Why podcast.
giantg2 4y ago
"Dreams take us to a different reality, a hallucinatory world that feels as real as any waking experience." Does it really? It doesn't feel that real when you know it's a dream. All the dreams I can remember are always ones that I know it's a dream. "rare phenomenon and lucid dreams can seldom be summoned at will, which has made it difficult for researchers to capture them in the lab in a reliable manner." I mean, I can't summon them at will, but I do tend to dream most nights, and they're (as far as I can remember) always lucid. I'm looking forward to more info about dreams and lucid dreams. I wonder if there's any correlation to stuff like dementia or early death. It seems like lucid dreaming is very tiring and that I don't wake well rested (I should add that I can generally control or struggle to control what goes on in the dream, so that might be part of it).
- otikik 4y ago
  I would say the opposite is true for me. I never know I am dreaming while I’m dreaming. You never have nightmares then, I take?
  - Baeocystin 4y ago
    Not OP, but I can't think of a dream that I remember where I didn't know I was dreaming. Sometimes they are nightmares, but if it gets too bad I just remind myself that it's just a dream, and then that's pretty much that.
  - Ancalagon 4y ago
    I also have never been able to lucid dream. Even the few instances where I realized I was dreaming I almost instantly woke up involuntarily. I have heard keeping a dream-journal and using a few techniques inside the dream can give you the ability to lucid dream, but these haven't worked for me.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Not really. I can find myself in a nightmare situation, but I can then force it to play out differently. I don't wake up scared or anything, but I will wake up tired from forcing the dream to change or go a certain way.
mindcrime 4y ago
I hope this research is quickly buried and never resurfaces again. Why? Because the last thing I want is to be asleep and dreaming and have some dream character approach me and say "I've been trying to reach you about your vehicle's extended warranty!" Do. Not. Want.
- xattt 4y ago
  This is when the needle deflections go off the scale and the electroencephalograph catches fire like in the movies.
- More-nitors 4y ago
  "...now, if you sign up for this insurance, you'll get ..."
- jokabrink 4y ago
  Excuse me Sir, do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour Jesus Christ?
- stuntkite 4y ago
  Like that episode of Futurama where Fry gets fancy space underpants inserted into his dreams. This paper is for sure the foundation for that.
SamPatt 4y ago
If I realize I'm dreaming, then it becomes a lucid dream, but a timer also starts ticking. I can't usually remain dreaming for more than 30 seconds (or what feels like that long). I usually realize I'm dreaming because I'm talking with someone who, I all of a sudden remember, is dead in real life (usually my parents). They then comfort me about this fact until I wake up. I could probably communicate something to an external observer for that brief window. I don't know how it would be useful though - I typically remember the lucid dream portion vividly upon waking up.
- wombat-man 4y ago
  I'm the same way. It's fun while it lasts!
- Nomentatus 4y ago
  During the day practice moving your attention from spot to spot in a triangle maybe 10 degrees of a side. Don't move your eyes, just your attention. (Your fovea is usually served by a lot of extra brain power, but with practice most of that computation (sharpening) power can be shifted. It probably won't happen the first few times, but you can eventually get this result, and it'll be obvious enough that you won't be in much doubt about it. Then when you start to realize you are lucid dreaming, shift your dream eyes (your attention) in similar triangles, while keeping calm as you can. This will help keep the dream from dissolving for a couple reasons, if you can remember to start doing it, and do keep doing it until the dream stabilizes again and lucid dreaming seems less startling. Asking yourself, seriously but very calmly, many times during the day whether you are lucid dreaming helps too; to increase the chances of lucidity, but even more to reduce the excitement of finding yourself lucid dreaming (which adrenaline spike can send you to wakefulness) by making the question a fairly ordinary one. Make sure you always start doing the triangular attention-shifting as soon as you start to ask the question, each time - to make that a habit that goes with that question/realization. Some of this information can be found in Casteneda's writings, some can't.
  - ReDeiPirati 4y ago
    I've started having lucid dreams by reminding me of "watching my hands" frequently and repeating a short mantra as described in Castaneda book (iirc the second one he wrote). It took me less than 3 weeks to start experiencing those. The first one was one of the most powerful and energetic experience of my life. I woke up with "I did it!" and started grasping because of the excitement. Something that help me from dissolving is to frequently reminding of shaking my hands during the dream, it gives a temporary boost of consciousness. The scariest thought that I had during my experiences was a time when I found myself thinking: 'what if I'll not be able to get back...'. I was walking in a dark world lighted by a moon for moments that felt like hours. I discovered that relaxing was enough to get back.
jimmaswell 4y ago
That theory that you make up the entire memory of a dream the instant you wake up based on the "randomized" state of the brain at sleep must be bunk then.
- throw827474737 4y ago
  A theory, or an urban myth? I believe much debunkable by many simpler observations even without tech...
Borrible 4y ago
https://dxe.pubpub.org/pub/dreamadvertising/release/1 https://dxe.pubpub.org/pub/dreamadvertising/release/1 Are in-deep dream-ads for deep-dream sleep-aids appropriate? The Sleeper Must Awaken!
weq 4y ago
Learning about Lucid dreaming is a worthy investment of effort that can be rewarding everytime you rest your eyes which is over 50% of your life if you get enough. I used to struggle with sleep, getting to sleep, staying asleep. I dreamt alot. It takes some time, but with just a basic technique about becoming alert and staying asleep at the same time, it can be assecible to all. I started out by trying to fly, progressed to completely orchestrating dreamscapes including summonsing different dream charactors at will.

111 points by lukas099 4y ago

tardibear 4y ago

(2021)

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

AlphaWeaver 4y ago

https://xkcd.com/269/ https://xkcd.com/269/

nomel 4y ago

I don't have access, but I believe this is the PDF, based on the title: https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(21)00059-2 https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(...

karencarits 4y ago

Citing the conclusion of a detailed comment on pubpeer (https://pubpeer.com/publications/AB8B5472EB1E3301B3581AA7EDB750 https://pubpeer.com/publications/AB8B5472EB1E3301B3581AA7EDB...): > a highly-selective analysis of highly selected participants shows that a small minority of them seem able to respond to simple questions while they sleep. the stats here are a mess.

giantg2 4y ago
I don't think the stats were the point. The conclusion isn't about quantifying it. It's essentially a binary existence statement and "we found this phenomenon that needs more research".
radu_floricica 4y ago
Like giantg2 said. There are (at least) two types of studies: this is purely exploratory, proof-of-concept type. The reason "a group of british scientists" studies got such a bad reputation is because they were largely aimed at finding out new stuff, but got presented by the press as the proving things. For discovery (or university science play) you're good with samples of 10-20 people. For proving stuff you need meta-analysis of several studies, ideally including RTCs and a couple of large longitudinal ones. shrug science is complicated. Some stuff about how to do it properly has been leaking into the water supply, but overall public opinion is pretty much detached from the details and still thinks a study is a study.

sorokod 4y ago

Has been mentioned in a recent The Joy of Why podcast.

giantg2 4y ago

"Dreams take us to a different reality, a hallucinatory world that feels as real as any waking experience." Does it really? It doesn't feel that real when you know it's a dream. All the dreams I can remember are always ones that I know it's a dream. "rare phenomenon and lucid dreams can seldom be summoned at will, which has made it difficult for researchers to capture them in the lab in a reliable manner." I mean, I can't summon them at will, but I do tend to dream most nights, and they're (as far as I can remember) always lucid. I'm looking forward to more info about dreams and lucid dreams. I wonder if there's any correlation to stuff like dementia or early death. It seems like lucid dreaming is very tiring and that I don't wake well rested (I should add that I can generally control or struggle to control what goes on in the dream, so that might be part of it).

otikik 4y ago
I would say the opposite is true for me. I never know I am dreaming while I’m dreaming. You never have nightmares then, I take?
- Baeocystin 4y ago
  Not OP, but I can't think of a dream that I remember where I didn't know I was dreaming. Sometimes they are nightmares, but if it gets too bad I just remind myself that it's just a dream, and then that's pretty much that.
- Ancalagon 4y ago
  I also have never been able to lucid dream. Even the few instances where I realized I was dreaming I almost instantly woke up involuntarily. I have heard keeping a dream-journal and using a few techniques inside the dream can give you the ability to lucid dream, but these haven't worked for me.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Not really. I can find myself in a nightmare situation, but I can then force it to play out differently. I don't wake up scared or anything, but I will wake up tired from forcing the dream to change or go a certain way.

mindcrime 4y ago

I hope this research is quickly buried and never resurfaces again. Why? Because the last thing I want is to be asleep and dreaming and have some dream character approach me and say "I've been trying to reach you about your vehicle's extended warranty!" Do. Not. Want.

xattt 4y ago
This is when the needle deflections go off the scale and the electroencephalograph catches fire like in the movies.
More-nitors 4y ago
"...now, if you sign up for this insurance, you'll get ..."
jokabrink 4y ago
Excuse me Sir, do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour Jesus Christ?
stuntkite 4y ago
Like that episode of Futurama where Fry gets fancy space underpants inserted into his dreams. This paper is for sure the foundation for that.

SamPatt 4y ago

If I realize I'm dreaming, then it becomes a lucid dream, but a timer also starts ticking. I can't usually remain dreaming for more than 30 seconds (or what feels like that long). I usually realize I'm dreaming because I'm talking with someone who, I all of a sudden remember, is dead in real life (usually my parents). They then comfort me about this fact until I wake up. I could probably communicate something to an external observer for that brief window. I don't know how it would be useful though - I typically remember the lucid dream portion vividly upon waking up.

wombat-man 4y ago
I'm the same way. It's fun while it lasts!
Nomentatus 4y ago
During the day practice moving your attention from spot to spot in a triangle maybe 10 degrees of a side. Don't move your eyes, just your attention. (Your fovea is usually served by a lot of extra brain power, but with practice most of that computation (sharpening) power can be shifted. It probably won't happen the first few times, but you can eventually get this result, and it'll be obvious enough that you won't be in much doubt about it. Then when you start to realize you are lucid dreaming, shift your dream eyes (your attention) in similar triangles, while keeping calm as you can. This will help keep the dream from dissolving for a couple reasons, if you can remember to start doing it, and do keep doing it until the dream stabilizes again and lucid dreaming seems less startling. Asking yourself, seriously but very calmly, many times during the day whether you are lucid dreaming helps too; to increase the chances of lucidity, but even more to reduce the excitement of finding yourself lucid dreaming (which adrenaline spike can send you to wakefulness) by making the question a fairly ordinary one. Make sure you always start doing the triangular attention-shifting as soon as you start to ask the question, each time - to make that a habit that goes with that question/realization. Some of this information can be found in Casteneda's writings, some can't.
- ReDeiPirati 4y ago
  I've started having lucid dreams by reminding me of "watching my hands" frequently and repeating a short mantra as described in Castaneda book (iirc the second one he wrote). It took me less than 3 weeks to start experiencing those. The first one was one of the most powerful and energetic experience of my life. I woke up with "I did it!" and started grasping because of the excitement. Something that help me from dissolving is to frequently reminding of shaking my hands during the dream, it gives a temporary boost of consciousness. The scariest thought that I had during my experiences was a time when I found myself thinking: 'what if I'll not be able to get back...'. I was walking in a dark world lighted by a moon for moments that felt like hours. I discovered that relaxing was enough to get back.

jimmaswell 4y ago

That theory that you make up the entire memory of a dream the instant you wake up based on the "randomized" state of the brain at sleep must be bunk then.

throw827474737 4y ago
A theory, or an urban myth? I believe much debunkable by many simpler observations even without tech...

Borrible 4y ago

https://dxe.pubpub.org/pub/dreamadvertising/release/1 https://dxe.pubpub.org/pub/dreamadvertising/release/1 Are in-deep dream-ads for deep-dream sleep-aids appropriate? The Sleeper Must Awaken!

weq 4y ago

Learning about Lucid dreaming is a worthy investment of effort that can be rewarding everytime you rest your eyes which is over 50% of your life if you get enough. I used to struggle with sleep, getting to sleep, staying asleep. I dreamt alot. It takes some time, but with just a basic technique about becoming alert and staying asleep at the same time, it can be assecible to all. I started out by trying to fly, progressed to completely orchestrating dreamscapes including summonsing different dream charactors at will.