6 ms·

Good. When we're constantly adding more data transfer functionality and power capabilities to USB-C, I don't buy the "but muh innovation" argument. The magic

Good. When we're constantly adding more data transfer functionality and power capabilities to USB-C, I don't buy the "but muh innovation" argument. The magic of USB-C isn't in the physical interface, it's in the chips that connect to the interface (both in the device and the cable). And if those chips want to change the pinouts after bootstrapping via the current pinout configuration, they can and will.

enriquec 4y ago
you may not buy the "but muh innovation" - its also sad that that passes for discourse for you - but it is economic fact. whats your opinion on "muh regulatory capture"? what about lightning vs microusb?
- hooverd 4y ago
  I don't see anybody complaining about the RJ45 format, or NEMA. If you let companies run wild they would probably come up with a way to shove DRM into connectors.
  - enriquec 4y ago
    "hooverd not hearing anyone complaining" isn't an accurate measure of innovation lost through politicizing technology and mandating connectors
  - xxpor 4y ago
    Oh, people complain about NEMA all the time. It's objectively the worst commonly used socket+plug system from a safety perspective. It's somewhat mitigated by the common voltage being half of what the Europlug etc sees. RJ45 (akchually 8p8c) also has its issues: people complain about how easy it is to break off the stupid plastic tab all the time. There's proto-DRM in SFP connectors though, you're right. There's an EEPROM in the connector since it needs to negotiate with whatever it's plugged in to, and companies like Juniper and Cisco will only support their own optics (at least, they used to).
    - hooverd 4y ago
      No argument there. The Europlug is another innovation stifling regulation though. We should allow developers/homebuilders to select the socket of their choice, even develop their own proprietary ones.
      - lwkl 4y ago
        Sounds great. I want to buy a new charger or adapter every time I travel to a different country. If we're at it we should also stop using SI units and go back to the times where every city had a different unit of measurement. Maybe we should go further and let companies develop their own units of measurement to allow for more innovation.
      - extraduder_ire 4y ago
        Is the europlug actually mandated or just common? I've seen a few different, sometimes incompatible, sockets in different mainland europe countries. If I was in NA, I would want to use british plugs on my 240V stuff if it was legal though. And not just because I hate the soles of my feet.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- falcolas 4y ago
  Sadly, that is the state of discourse that's coming from the innovation POV. The entire tone of these arguments boils down to an appeal to "common sense" with nothing backing it. And, as repeatedly pointed out, it's not like the EU is preemptively stifling all potential replacements. They're explicitly carving room in the laws for those replacements when they're ready.
  - chroma 4y ago
    It stifles innovation because anyone who wants to use a new connector has to lobby some EU bureaucrats. How long have we had to click through cookie consent popups on every website? You’d think the EU would be able to update their laws to fix something so simple and annoying. I expect their phone connector standards to be administered with similar competence.
    - izacus 4y ago
      Except that the regulation doesn't do any such thing (the USB-C mandate will expire automatically after a few years) and the innovation angle is just bloviating from people who haven't read the regulation and need a desperate need to defend their rich mega corporation.
      - enriquec 4y ago
        > Except that the regulation doesn't do any such thing (the USB-C mandate will expire automatically after a few years) The precedence has been set. > and the innovation angle is just bloviating from people who haven't read the regulation and need a desperate need to defend their rich mega corporation. lol dude, aside from your clear lack of knowledge in economics - you're never going to learn anything with that attitude.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        GamerUncle 4y ago
scarface74 4y ago
You realize that “magic” isn’t being enforced by the as usual short sighted EU? There is no requirement to ship USB cords that actually transfer data at USB3 speeds or actually any mandate to have cables that support data at all. What do you think the chances are that cheap Android phones will ship with more expensive cables that can transfer at USB 3 speeds? Not to mention that I doubt that the cheap USB cords will support video over USB C - something that USB C iPads already support.
- falcolas 4y ago
  All I expect out of a USB-C cord shipped by apple with my phone is the ability to charge (which is what I get with an iPad, which uses USB-C). I'd love to expect more, but a Thunderbolt cable is stupidly expensive and not worth including by default. Standardization around the markings and marketing for USB-C cables would be f'ing awesome. But I'll take this win regardless.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    It’s not Apple that you have to worry about not supporting the full spec - they already do with USB C iPads. It’s the Android manufacturers and your local convenience store. Meaning it is still “contributing to ewaste” when you can’t use your old USB C cords to get all of the functionality that is part of the USB C spec. This is yet another example of EU regulators not thinking through their proposals — see also the GDPR whose only consequence is a bunch of cookie pop ups.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      I'm sorry, but I don't see how we can lay the blame for corporations cutting corners on completely unrelated legislation. I get that there can be unintended consequences with passed legislation, but these seem too disconnected to be relevant. As in, there have been substandard USB-C cables since USB-C first came out. The existence of those cables can't be laid at the feet of requiring Apple to use USB-C on the one remaining device they offer which doesn't use USB-C.

enriquec 4y ago

you may not buy the "but muh innovation" - its also sad that that passes for discourse for you - but it is economic fact. whats your opinion on "muh regulatory capture"? what about lightning vs microusb?

hooverd 4y ago
I don't see anybody complaining about the RJ45 format, or NEMA. If you let companies run wild they would probably come up with a way to shove DRM into connectors.
- enriquec 4y ago
  "hooverd not hearing anyone complaining" isn't an accurate measure of innovation lost through politicizing technology and mandating connectors
- xxpor 4y ago
  Oh, people complain about NEMA all the time. It's objectively the worst commonly used socket+plug system from a safety perspective. It's somewhat mitigated by the common voltage being half of what the Europlug etc sees. RJ45 (akchually 8p8c) also has its issues: people complain about how easy it is to break off the stupid plastic tab all the time. There's proto-DRM in SFP connectors though, you're right. There's an EEPROM in the connector since it needs to negotiate with whatever it's plugged in to, and companies like Juniper and Cisco will only support their own optics (at least, they used to).
  - hooverd 4y ago
    No argument there. The Europlug is another innovation stifling regulation though. We should allow developers/homebuilders to select the socket of their choice, even develop their own proprietary ones.
    - lwkl 4y ago
      Sounds great. I want to buy a new charger or adapter every time I travel to a different country. If we're at it we should also stop using SI units and go back to the times where every city had a different unit of measurement. Maybe we should go further and let companies develop their own units of measurement to allow for more innovation.
    - extraduder_ire 4y ago
      Is the europlug actually mandated or just common? I've seen a few different, sometimes incompatible, sockets in different mainland europe countries. If I was in NA, I would want to use british plugs on my 240V stuff if it was legal though. And not just because I hate the soles of my feet.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
falcolas 4y ago
Sadly, that is the state of discourse that's coming from the innovation POV. The entire tone of these arguments boils down to an appeal to "common sense" with nothing backing it. And, as repeatedly pointed out, it's not like the EU is preemptively stifling all potential replacements. They're explicitly carving room in the laws for those replacements when they're ready.
- chroma 4y ago
  It stifles innovation because anyone who wants to use a new connector has to lobby some EU bureaucrats. How long have we had to click through cookie consent popups on every website? You’d think the EU would be able to update their laws to fix something so simple and annoying. I expect their phone connector standards to be administered with similar competence.
  - izacus 4y ago
    Except that the regulation doesn't do any such thing (the USB-C mandate will expire automatically after a few years) and the innovation angle is just bloviating from people who haven't read the regulation and need a desperate need to defend their rich mega corporation.
    - enriquec 4y ago
      > Except that the regulation doesn't do any such thing (the USB-C mandate will expire automatically after a few years) The precedence has been set. > and the innovation angle is just bloviating from people who haven't read the regulation and need a desperate need to defend their rich mega corporation. lol dude, aside from your clear lack of knowledge in economics - you're never going to learn anything with that attitude.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - GamerUncle 4y ago

scarface74 4y ago

You realize that “magic” isn’t being enforced by the as usual short sighted EU? There is no requirement to ship USB cords that actually transfer data at USB3 speeds or actually any mandate to have cables that support data at all. What do you think the chances are that cheap Android phones will ship with more expensive cables that can transfer at USB 3 speeds? Not to mention that I doubt that the cheap USB cords will support video over USB C - something that USB C iPads already support.

falcolas 4y ago
All I expect out of a USB-C cord shipped by apple with my phone is the ability to charge (which is what I get with an iPad, which uses USB-C). I'd love to expect more, but a Thunderbolt cable is stupidly expensive and not worth including by default. Standardization around the markings and marketing for USB-C cables would be f'ing awesome. But I'll take this win regardless.
- scarface74 4y ago
  It’s not Apple that you have to worry about not supporting the full spec - they already do with USB C iPads. It’s the Android manufacturers and your local convenience store. Meaning it is still “contributing to ewaste” when you can’t use your old USB C cords to get all of the functionality that is part of the USB C spec. This is yet another example of EU regulators not thinking through their proposals — see also the GDPR whose only consequence is a bunch of cookie pop ups.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    I'm sorry, but I don't see how we can lay the blame for corporations cutting corners on completely unrelated legislation. I get that there can be unintended consequences with passed legislation, but these seem too disconnected to be relevant. As in, there have been substandard USB-C cables since USB-C first came out. The existence of those cables can't be laid at the feet of requiring Apple to use USB-C on the one remaining device they offer which doesn't use USB-C.