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>By the time nuclear projects started now complete, solar and wind will be mopping the floor with them ROI wise. Yes, it will take decades to restart large sca

>By the time nuclear projects started now complete, solar and wind will be mopping the floor with them ROI wise. Yes, it will take decades to restart large scale nuclear projects. So we lost more than 50 years. With Solar/Wind it's not a question of cost or ROI. Solar/wind, as an intermittent and diffuse energy source, CANNOT power a modern economy. It needs base-load.

dontreact 4y ago
What about if storage improves? Can't that smooth out the intermittent nature and provide for the base load?
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Storage needs to improve by a few orders of magnitude to make that possible, and it's not clear that we even know what storage technology to use.
- govg 4y ago
  To be very honest, I feel like the car culture in the US gives every household a potential large battery to sustain their house with. In a future where every car is an EV, every American house has two giant batteries, if not more, hooked up to it all night.
  - mcone 4y ago
    But what happens in the morning when people wake up to an empty car battery and they need to drive to work?
    - govg 4y ago
      A) How much electricity do you think is consumed at night? ( US average daily consumption is 30 KWh) B) How much electricity do you think can be stored in a car battery? (Tesla batteries are >= 50 KWh ) C) What happens to existing sources of renewable power that will continue to operate at night? ( They can still provide a baseload that accounts for any shortfalls )
  - shuger 4y ago
    If you use your car as battery during the night it won't have energy in the morning when you need it. It defeats the purpose of having a car.
    - govg 4y ago
      Modern Teslas can store double the daily usage of a US average household. And that's assuming you have literally zero generation at night (hydro / nuclear / geothermal / pumped storage ).
- macspoofing 4y ago
  >What about if storage improves? But it isn't. There is no storage solution that is able to bridge the intermittency gap to make wind/solar workable for a modern economy.
raphaelj 4y ago
Building a modern zero carbon economy based on renewable energies is not only possible but also close to cost competitive to the nuclear-intensive alternative [1]: >>> Regarding the evolution of technology costs, under the baseline scenario, the cost difference between the M23 (renewable only) and N2 (old and new nuclear + renewable) scenarios is close to 10 billion euros a year (0.3% of France's GDP). This is a quote from France's mostly nuclear based electric grid agency. Losing 0.3% of GDP but avoiding any inherent social, environmental and economical risk associated with nuclear does not look bad to me. [1] https://assets.rte-france.com/prod/public/2022-01/Energy%20pathways%202050_Key%20results.pdf https://assets.rte-france.com/prod/public/2022-01/Energy%20p...
- macspoofing 4y ago
  >Building a modern zero carbon economy based on renewable energies is not only possible but also close to cost competitive to the nuclear-intensive alternative [1]: Oh yeah? Point me at an example. This is not a question of ROI. Wind/Solar could be free and still could not power a modern economy. There are no economies of any significant size (say, larger than a mid-size city) that are powered by wind/solar. There are no economies that have plans in the near-to-mid term to be powered by wind/solar. Why was Germany, up until recently, investing billions to ship Russian gas for decades if wind/solar is just around the corner? So what are we talking about here?
eloff 4y ago
You can achieve that steady grid by over-building wind+solar, interconnecting larger areas of grid, as that naturally smooths out the variability as the system gets larger and more diverse, and adding storage. Storage is not quite there yet, cost efficiency wise, but it's less of a stretch to believe it can get there, than it is to believe nuclear can be made cost competitive.
- macspoofing 4y ago
  >You can achieve that steady grid by over-building wind+solar, No. You can't. There are times when you get neither wind nor solar. Overprovisioning isn't going to do anything for you there.
goodpoint 4y ago
"base load" is a myth.
- macspoofing 4y ago
  OK. Don't focus on the semantics. There are times when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow - what do you do then?
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    You do the very same things that electric grids has been successfully doing for the last 40 years: - Exchange electricity with other network on national and international level to balance out the load. - Modulate big industrial loads. It's standard practice in many countries to have fine-grained tariffs for large consumers that are willing to adapt to fluctuating energy availability and prices. - Modulate residential consumer loads around house and water heating. Many countries have been doing day/night tariffs for decades and people store energy as heat using boilers and storage heaters. - Store energy using pumped hydro & similar And now we can also start modulating consumer loads more precisely using smart appliances and charging EVs at the best time of the day. Also, despite the FUD around wind/solar the reality is that: - currently most countries have excess energy during the night rather than not enough. In general, using more solar would help rather that create a problem! - solar+wind combined are not going to drop down to 30% for a whole day or week in a whole continent, only on a local level. You can find detailed statistics online. - solar is very cheap and can be overscaled to compensate for low production times - many industrial loads can be made more flexible if that means cheaper electricity on average
therealdrag0 4y ago
Isn’t the base load required a fraction of our current coal/gas usage? Let’s get there first before complaining about solar/wind. (Though I’m also fully in support of more nuclear too)

dontreact 4y ago

What about if storage improves? Can't that smooth out the intermittent nature and provide for the base load?

pclmulqdq 4y ago
Storage needs to improve by a few orders of magnitude to make that possible, and it's not clear that we even know what storage technology to use.
govg 4y ago
To be very honest, I feel like the car culture in the US gives every household a potential large battery to sustain their house with. In a future where every car is an EV, every American house has two giant batteries, if not more, hooked up to it all night.
- mcone 4y ago
  But what happens in the morning when people wake up to an empty car battery and they need to drive to work?
  - govg 4y ago
    A) How much electricity do you think is consumed at night? ( US average daily consumption is 30 KWh) B) How much electricity do you think can be stored in a car battery? (Tesla batteries are >= 50 KWh ) C) What happens to existing sources of renewable power that will continue to operate at night? ( They can still provide a baseload that accounts for any shortfalls )
- shuger 4y ago
  If you use your car as battery during the night it won't have energy in the morning when you need it. It defeats the purpose of having a car.
  - govg 4y ago
    Modern Teslas can store double the daily usage of a US average household. And that's assuming you have literally zero generation at night (hydro / nuclear / geothermal / pumped storage ).
macspoofing 4y ago
>What about if storage improves? But it isn't. There is no storage solution that is able to bridge the intermittency gap to make wind/solar workable for a modern economy.

raphaelj 4y ago

Building a modern zero carbon economy based on renewable energies is not only possible but also close to cost competitive to the nuclear-intensive alternative [1]: >>> Regarding the evolution of technology costs, under the baseline scenario, the cost difference between the M23 (renewable only) and N2 (old and new nuclear + renewable) scenarios is close to 10 billion euros a year (0.3% of France's GDP). This is a quote from France's mostly nuclear based electric grid agency. Losing 0.3% of GDP but avoiding any inherent social, environmental and economical risk associated with nuclear does not look bad to me. [1] https://assets.rte-france.com/prod/public/2022-01/Energy%20pathways%202050_Key%20results.pdf https://assets.rte-france.com/prod/public/2022-01/Energy%20p...

macspoofing 4y ago
>Building a modern zero carbon economy based on renewable energies is not only possible but also close to cost competitive to the nuclear-intensive alternative [1]: Oh yeah? Point me at an example. This is not a question of ROI. Wind/Solar could be free and still could not power a modern economy. There are no economies of any significant size (say, larger than a mid-size city) that are powered by wind/solar. There are no economies that have plans in the near-to-mid term to be powered by wind/solar. Why was Germany, up until recently, investing billions to ship Russian gas for decades if wind/solar is just around the corner? So what are we talking about here?

eloff 4y ago

You can achieve that steady grid by over-building wind+solar, interconnecting larger areas of grid, as that naturally smooths out the variability as the system gets larger and more diverse, and adding storage. Storage is not quite there yet, cost efficiency wise, but it's less of a stretch to believe it can get there, than it is to believe nuclear can be made cost competitive.

macspoofing 4y ago
>You can achieve that steady grid by over-building wind+solar, No. You can't. There are times when you get neither wind nor solar. Overprovisioning isn't going to do anything for you there.

goodpoint 4y ago

"base load" is a myth.

macspoofing 4y ago
OK. Don't focus on the semantics. There are times when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow - what do you do then?
- goodpoint 4y ago
  You do the very same things that electric grids has been successfully doing for the last 40 years: - Exchange electricity with other network on national and international level to balance out the load. - Modulate big industrial loads. It's standard practice in many countries to have fine-grained tariffs for large consumers that are willing to adapt to fluctuating energy availability and prices. - Modulate residential consumer loads around house and water heating. Many countries have been doing day/night tariffs for decades and people store energy as heat using boilers and storage heaters. - Store energy using pumped hydro & similar And now we can also start modulating consumer loads more precisely using smart appliances and charging EVs at the best time of the day. Also, despite the FUD around wind/solar the reality is that: - currently most countries have excess energy during the night rather than not enough. In general, using more solar would help rather that create a problem! - solar+wind combined are not going to drop down to 30% for a whole day or week in a whole continent, only on a local level. You can find detailed statistics online. - solar is very cheap and can be overscaled to compensate for low production times - many industrial loads can be made more flexible if that means cheaper electricity on average

therealdrag0 4y ago

Isn’t the base load required a fraction of our current coal/gas usage? Let’s get there first before complaining about solar/wind. (Though I’m also fully in support of more nuclear too)