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> any of which Signal might be forced to run using national security letter. NSLs can demand information but cannot compel action. The govt cannot use an NSL t

> any of which Signal might be forced to run using national security letter. NSLs can demand information but cannot compel action. The govt cannot use an NSL to force you into military service, for example, or force you to hack someone else’s computer (which is essentially what you are suggesting).

O__________O 4y ago
Regardless if they were “compeled” - nation security letter related activities have included actions. For example, this included a room and split: - https://wikipedia.org/wiki/33_Thomas_Street https://wikipedia.org/wiki/33_Thomas_Street My understanding is that vendors that execute national security letters offer system integration technology to be locally installed to ingest the related data. Signal has the data, it just requires them collecting it — hence my statement that Signal’s security is based on trust, not physics, math, etc.
- tssva 4y ago
  Those actions were not the result of a national security letter. NSLs can only require the production of existing records. They cannot require the release of the content of communications nor the collection of records which don't already exist. They must also specify the time period the records request covers which can only include up to the date the NSL was received.
  - O__________O 4y ago
    As I said, they’re related. That is All Writs Act is a United States federal statute, codified at 28 U.S.C. § 1651, which authorizes the United States federal courts to issue all writs necessary or appropriate in aid of their respective jurisdictions and agreeable to the usages and principles of law. A writ is a form of written command in the name of a court or other legal authority to act, or abstain from acting, in some way. Also my understanding that the National Security Letters vendors can simply reissue them automatically to maintain persistent data feeds. Disclosing actions taken via All Writs Act to enable national security letters would likely be a disclosure of them similar to warrant canary.
    - tssva 4y ago
      NSLs don't involve data feeds. The All Writs Act involves a judicial review and issuing of a judicial subpoena. A judicial subpoena may well involve ongoing data collection. NSLs are administrative subpoenas which aren't reviewed by the judiciary before being issued and limited in scope because of that. Actions taken "via All Writs Act" are not to enable NSLs.
from 4y ago
This is correct but the All Writs Act can compel third parties to help in a criminal investigation, like a phone company being asked to help wiretap a phone. Signal by design at the most would have only contacts that you shared and IP address/access log. Apple was able to argue that they shouldn’t be forced to push an update to unlock the phone of that terrorist in California so there are limits to it but they are not entirely clear.
- O__________O 4y ago
  Idea that Apple would not add backdoors privately regardless of what actions they take publicly is a stretch give Apple has obviously been more than happy to tailor their systems to China’s demands. Core difference between China and US is that US is fine on government spying on it as long as it’s done in secrecy.

O__________O 4y ago

Regardless if they were “compeled” - nation security letter related activities have included actions. For example, this included a room and split: - https://wikipedia.org/wiki/33_Thomas_Street https://wikipedia.org/wiki/33_Thomas_Street My understanding is that vendors that execute national security letters offer system integration technology to be locally installed to ingest the related data. Signal has the data, it just requires them collecting it — hence my statement that Signal’s security is based on trust, not physics, math, etc.

tssva 4y ago
Those actions were not the result of a national security letter. NSLs can only require the production of existing records. They cannot require the release of the content of communications nor the collection of records which don't already exist. They must also specify the time period the records request covers which can only include up to the date the NSL was received.
- O__________O 4y ago
  As I said, they’re related. That is All Writs Act is a United States federal statute, codified at 28 U.S.C. § 1651, which authorizes the United States federal courts to issue all writs necessary or appropriate in aid of their respective jurisdictions and agreeable to the usages and principles of law. A writ is a form of written command in the name of a court or other legal authority to act, or abstain from acting, in some way. Also my understanding that the National Security Letters vendors can simply reissue them automatically to maintain persistent data feeds. Disclosing actions taken via All Writs Act to enable national security letters would likely be a disclosure of them similar to warrant canary.
  - tssva 4y ago
    NSLs don't involve data feeds. The All Writs Act involves a judicial review and issuing of a judicial subpoena. A judicial subpoena may well involve ongoing data collection. NSLs are administrative subpoenas which aren't reviewed by the judiciary before being issued and limited in scope because of that. Actions taken "via All Writs Act" are not to enable NSLs.

from 4y ago

This is correct but the All Writs Act can compel third parties to help in a criminal investigation, like a phone company being asked to help wiretap a phone. Signal by design at the most would have only contacts that you shared and IP address/access log. Apple was able to argue that they shouldn’t be forced to push an update to unlock the phone of that terrorist in California so there are limits to it but they are not entirely clear.

O__________O 4y ago
Idea that Apple would not add backdoors privately regardless of what actions they take publicly is a stretch give Apple has obviously been more than happy to tailor their systems to China’s demands. Core difference between China and US is that US is fine on government spying on it as long as it’s done in secrecy.