20 ms·

As a mailing-list bound software professional, this is wonderful news. Maybe one day we will be free of software development on MLs.

clircle 4y ago
What's better than a mailing list?
- robert_foss 4y ago
  I'd say that 95% of developers would find a github/gitlab type interface more productive and easy to pick up.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    The remaining 5% know how to use git
    - robert_foss 4y ago
      That's kinda of elitist. And very likely not true.
      - ilyt 4y ago
        neither is 95% number, it was a joke
    - chpatrick 4y ago
      Git has nothing to do with discussion and issue tracking.
      - sleepydog 4y ago
        git has a built-in email command.
      - ilyt 4y ago
        The comparison is not "git to github" but "mailing list + git" (aka. Linux Kernel development model) vs "github". As. You know. The thread is about mailing lists ? Technically there are git based issue trackers and code review systems but that's unrelated note
- bitwize 4y ago
  Discord. Twitch chat. You can raise bugs as you watch the developer's anime avatar write the code.
- aliqot 4y ago
  nothing, but kids dont want to hear that. github can fuck us 12 ways to sunday and people will still refuse to submit diffs via email bc it's a different paradigm.
- bobajeff 4y ago
  Yeah, I don't see why we need to give up email just to have a GitHub like UI for merging and pulling.
- dsr_ 4y ago
  A mailing list which is 1:1 accessible via a web interface and an NNTP interface.
  - robert_foss 4y ago
    Sure that's better. What would be even better would be support: - CI integration - Rich markup, for images etc. - Simple patch management - Edits to messages - Issue tracking
    - dsr_ 4y ago
      What does CI have to do with a mailing list for software support? Rich markup: you can use HTML in mail. I think it's silly, but you can do that. Simple patch management: that's what version control systems are for; if your vcs doesn't support email, you can't do that. If it does, you can. Edits to messages: you mean altering the past? That's a terrible idea. Issue tracking: that's what bug trackers are for. You add a link to the bug number, or, more likely, you send a mail message to the bug tracker's email interface and get a bug number back. Send more email with the bug number in the subject and it gets added as a comment to the bug.
      - robert_foss 4y ago
        I think most people prefer having all of this functionality integrated in one place.
e3bc54b2 4y ago
As someone who formerly used to be in no-ML camp, I am proudly converted. Mailing Lists are decidedly democratic, and have least barrier to entry. It is also technically superior in providing unified interface to patches, communication, bug reports and everything adjacent. Compared to that any fancy service provides lock-in under thin veil of "friendly interface".
- robert_foss 4y ago
  I think most developers would find it easier to contribute to a github/gitlab/gitea project than a ML one. Besides, there are definite downsides to like MLs, like CI integration and pulling patches to local trees. Now, there are strengths too. Like being archived easily & having threaded conversations integrated.
  - e3bc54b2 4y ago
    CI can definitely done on mailing lists. The interface is bit worse than PRs, but I'm sure with enough imagination that can be overcome. Pulling local trees has been absolutely better IMO with mailing list. I can literally with single keybinding apply patch to relevant repo, something that takes much longer route with Github. (convert URL to raw.github/whatever, copy and paste to apply, or do clicky-clicky in the Github app or whathaveyou)
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > Mailing Lists are decidedly democratic, and have least barrier to entry. Oh no, they are not. I loathe projects that only do mailing list support, because that means I have to subscribe to the mailing list, create a new folder and filter rule so that the mailing list doesn't flood my inbox with stuff I don't care about, and once the problem is solved, leave the mailing list, remove the filter and folder. In contrast, issues on GitHub/GitLab or public self-hosted GitLab instances only require me signing up once (and in most cases via some form of SSO), I can add attachments such as screenshots or detailed logs that would just blow through the ridiculous size caps on mails, and I only get notifications on topics I explicitly subscribe for.
jjav 4y ago
> Maybe one day we will be free of software development on MLs. This is the same as saying we should only ever do open source development on closed proprietary platforms which only exist and allow access on the whim of a single entity which responds to no one. As opposed to communicating over a completely open, decentralized and inherently free protocol.
- LinAGKar 4y ago
  Discourse is open source

clircle 4y ago

What's better than a mailing list?

robert_foss 4y ago
I'd say that 95% of developers would find a github/gitlab type interface more productive and easy to pick up.
- ilyt 4y ago
  The remaining 5% know how to use git
  - robert_foss 4y ago
    That's kinda of elitist. And very likely not true.
    - ilyt 4y ago
      neither is 95% number, it was a joke
  - chpatrick 4y ago
    Git has nothing to do with discussion and issue tracking.
    - sleepydog 4y ago
      git has a built-in email command.
    - ilyt 4y ago
      The comparison is not "git to github" but "mailing list + git" (aka. Linux Kernel development model) vs "github". As. You know. The thread is about mailing lists ? Technically there are git based issue trackers and code review systems but that's unrelated note
bitwize 4y ago
Discord. Twitch chat. You can raise bugs as you watch the developer's anime avatar write the code.
aliqot 4y ago
nothing, but kids dont want to hear that. github can fuck us 12 ways to sunday and people will still refuse to submit diffs via email bc it's a different paradigm.
bobajeff 4y ago
Yeah, I don't see why we need to give up email just to have a GitHub like UI for merging and pulling.
dsr_ 4y ago
A mailing list which is 1:1 accessible via a web interface and an NNTP interface.
- robert_foss 4y ago
  Sure that's better. What would be even better would be support: - CI integration - Rich markup, for images etc. - Simple patch management - Edits to messages - Issue tracking
  - dsr_ 4y ago
    What does CI have to do with a mailing list for software support? Rich markup: you can use HTML in mail. I think it's silly, but you can do that. Simple patch management: that's what version control systems are for; if your vcs doesn't support email, you can't do that. If it does, you can. Edits to messages: you mean altering the past? That's a terrible idea. Issue tracking: that's what bug trackers are for. You add a link to the bug number, or, more likely, you send a mail message to the bug tracker's email interface and get a bug number back. Send more email with the bug number in the subject and it gets added as a comment to the bug.
    - robert_foss 4y ago
      I think most people prefer having all of this functionality integrated in one place.

e3bc54b2 4y ago

As someone who formerly used to be in no-ML camp, I am proudly converted. Mailing Lists are decidedly democratic, and have least barrier to entry. It is also technically superior in providing unified interface to patches, communication, bug reports and everything adjacent. Compared to that any fancy service provides lock-in under thin veil of "friendly interface".

robert_foss 4y ago
I think most developers would find it easier to contribute to a github/gitlab/gitea project than a ML one. Besides, there are definite downsides to like MLs, like CI integration and pulling patches to local trees. Now, there are strengths too. Like being archived easily & having threaded conversations integrated.
- e3bc54b2 4y ago
  CI can definitely done on mailing lists. The interface is bit worse than PRs, but I'm sure with enough imagination that can be overcome. Pulling local trees has been absolutely better IMO with mailing list. I can literally with single keybinding apply patch to relevant repo, something that takes much longer route with Github. (convert URL to raw.github/whatever, copy and paste to apply, or do clicky-clicky in the Github app or whathaveyou)
mschuster91 4y ago
> Mailing Lists are decidedly democratic, and have least barrier to entry. Oh no, they are not. I loathe projects that only do mailing list support, because that means I have to subscribe to the mailing list, create a new folder and filter rule so that the mailing list doesn't flood my inbox with stuff I don't care about, and once the problem is solved, leave the mailing list, remove the filter and folder. In contrast, issues on GitHub/GitLab or public self-hosted GitLab instances only require me signing up once (and in most cases via some form of SSO), I can add attachments such as screenshots or detailed logs that would just blow through the ridiculous size caps on mails, and I only get notifications on topics I explicitly subscribe for.

jjav 4y ago

> Maybe one day we will be free of software development on MLs. This is the same as saying we should only ever do open source development on closed proprietary platforms which only exist and allow access on the whim of a single entity which responds to no one. As opposed to communicating over a completely open, decentralized and inherently free protocol.

LinAGKar 4y ago
Discourse is open source