6 ms·

I love Gnome, they piss some people off by making radical choices, but slowly they keep iterating and coming up with something nice over a long term. They have

I love Gnome, they piss some people off by making radical choices, but slowly they keep iterating and coming up with something nice over a long term. They have a vision and stick to it for years. I'm happy they don't just feel offended by posts like yours and act like short term pleasers. It's foss, you can fork it, you can use KDE. you can switch to Windows if you want. That's what free as in freedom is. Personally I would have preferred matrix/element but hey Discourse>mailing lists for me.

rolandog 4y ago
> Personally I would have preferred matrix/element but hey Discourse>mailing lists for me. Seems like there will be a Matrix bridge; FTA: > GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator Andrea Veri [...] > [...] also mentioned reducing fragmentation of the GNOME communities, along with improved integration, such as a bridge to Matrix for live chat. The move is part of a general modernization of the GNOME Project's infrastructure, which has also seen a move from IRC to Matrix and from cgit to GitLab.
okasaki 4y ago
Like what? I think it's generally agreed that their main product, the GNOME UI, uh, sucks.
- henriquez 4y ago
  I like it
  - okasaki 4y ago
    Well, that's okay. But lots of people don't and I've never seen anyone using it. I've seen Unity, XFCE, i3, and KDE, but no GNOME.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      Look harder.
- hactually 4y ago
  I also like it. plenty of the guys I collaborate with do too. what data are you going from?
  - flyingfences 4y ago
    Does the file picker show thumbnails yet?
    - teekert 4y ago
      That's it right, the one thing always brought up. What a horrible DE Gnome must be.
      - dsr_ 4y ago
        The missing feature/bug is small and local. The inability to fix it is an indicator of a cultural/organizational problem.
    - asoneth 4y ago
      No, but hopefully that issue is resolved soon: https://feaneron.com/2022/10/21/the-death-of-the-meme/ https://feaneron.com/2022/10/21/the-death-of-the-meme/
      - vanous 4y ago
        Omg, what will the GNOME haters do now... They will have to make up something new.
- aliqot 4y ago
  gnome was the chosen ui and now its terrible, aiming for a mythical apple convert who wants a touch friendly interface gnome 2 was the truth. im curious if id still be running gui's today if gnome didnt crap the bed so bad, im mainly in tmux now.
  - teekert 4y ago
    Switch to Mate.
    - aliqot 4y ago
      these days if i must have a gui, it's xfce because it does the moves that got it to the dance, nothing more and nothing less.
  - krylon 4y ago
    MATE is a fork of Gnome 2. I like it very much, and it's available on all major distros and on the BSD systems.
  - malermeister 4y ago
    It's the perfect UI for this ex-MacBook user on the Surface. I'm glad somebody made a UI that actually works in both form factors. All that's missing is a swipe keyboard.
    - aliqot 4y ago
      see? my point.
      - malermeister 4y ago
        Not your point. We're not mythical creatures. We exist.
        aliqot 4y ago
        this doesn't need to be a crips and bloods thing. some day you'll assimilate. everyone has their own timeline.
- teekert 4y ago
  You know that that is (your/an) opinion, right? I think it is not at all "generally agreed". It wouldn't be the default on most major distros if it did. And even if it was, why would you care even?
  - ilyt 4y ago
    Inertia and being "good enough" is massive factor. Average user don't give a shit frankly
    - asoneth 4y ago
      It is certainly possible that GNOME is only popular because of legacy inertia, and that it will eventually be surpassed by other desktop environments as, by definition, inertia doesn't last forever. But it's worth acknowledging that it's also possible that a large number of people simply disagree with you and actively choose it on its own merits.
      - ilyt 4y ago
        The second factor is being "good enough". Not many people will move DE if they are 5, 10, even 25% better. The complaints are also mostly from power users Especially now where most of stuff you do is "switch between few full screen apps" so as long as access to the basics is not obstructed I'd imagine most users wouldn't care
- kaba0 4y ago
  GNOME UI is very snappy and pragmatic, in my opinion much better than macos on a laptop screen for example. Out of every OS, I will happily use Gnome on wayland without a second thought, and I’m not alone.
lapinot 4y ago
> they piss some people off by making radical choices No, people are not pissed off by the radicality of the choices. Stop taking people for uneducated jokers. People are pissed off because they understand the choices and do not agree with them or what they imply. Gamification, pushing apps and app stores, using the same disempowering concepts as mobile plateforms, changing design every so often for no good reason, focusing on simple design over features to the extreme which is again disempowering users, disregarding high performance requirements or assumptions such as recent hardware, stop pushing touchscreens. Nobody is arguing against having clean and accessible design for newcomers and nobody is saying that all of gnome is bad. It's just the same kind of critics that happen against wikimedia foundation or against mozilla: it is addressed to the management and the people that control the marketing and reads basically: cut the crap, stop doing futile stuff, your core things are good but they have been in better shape and would need more actual useful work, your goal is not only low entry barrier but also and very importantly high ceiling, if you target entry users your goal is to educate and teach. Also you are not a product (which needs to succeed and keep growing) but a tool, for users, by users, which solves a given goal and will be irrelevant when this goal becomes irrelevant, and that's ok.
- soco 4y ago
  The main reason I'm not using Linux at home is exactly updates - I don't want to be bothered for hours figuring out arcane error messages for each and every round of updates. When a distribution will be able to handle updates like the mobile platforms I will reconsider, and until then I'll handle this hassle only at work where I'm paid for it.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - simion314 4y ago
    I don't care if you run Linux or not, but for a home computer try a LTS distro, maybe Kubuntu , don't install third party PPAs and you should not get any problems updating. Using an LTS means that you are not getting the new shinny thing that you might see on the internet though. But if your current setup works painlessly for you then keep using that.
ilyt 4y ago
It's not that easy, you will be tied to GNOME just by fact this or that app (for which there might not be replacement) picked GTK for its interface, so you have to at least go thru configuring it to look the same as the rest of your desktop. No matter which DE you chose you will be under GNOME's malady of design decisions. > They have a vision and stick to it for years. I'm happy they don't just feel offended by posts like yours and act like short term pleasers. If your design decisions are so bad there are multiple projects that migrate off you or stick to the old version (hell, GIMP is still stuck at GTKv2 IIRC, with GTKv3 slowly getting there) then your "vision" might not be that great. Honestly GNOME is there because of inertia more than quality of the changes. > Personally I would have preferred matrix/element but hey Discourse>mailing lists for me. The interaction for randoms is much easier but I hate how much space it wastes. I wish there was "my desktop is not phone" default theme there...
- malermeister 4y ago
  Well yeah, if you use a gnome app, it'll look like a gnome app. In other news, if you use green paint, it'll paint things green.
  - simion314 4y ago
    GTK was a GUI toolkit, it was DE agnostic and also cross platform (though it looked like shit). But as we can see from your comment GTK was captured by GNOME to be a GNOME exclusive project, if a change broke XFCE , GNOME people pretended they do not know what an XFCE is.
    - malermeister 4y ago
      GTK has long been under the GNOME umbrella. The XFCE folks are welcome to fork GTK to support their own use cases.
      - simion314 4y ago
        >GTK has long been under the GNOME umbrella. Did you know that GTK was a cross platform tookit, even on Windows and Mac OS? Andf you did not had to install GNOME on Windows to use a GTK app, because it was a tooklit for making apps, and GNOME was a project that combine GTK apps, and a window manager to make a DE. Many apps ported to Qt so I don't think there is a chance that GTK will get a viable fork, Qt will be the only cross platform toolkit
kkfx 4y ago
Discourse means a resource hungry (both on server and client terms) application unable to be integrated by anyone, with sugar eye graphics you do not get from mail due to mere lack of development. With emails you can have your own UI in your own desktop, a thing only very few know nowadays and even less know how powerful and free it is. Sometimes people see in-Emacs presentations and say "that's like magic", it's just the classic desktop model vs the modern ex-IBM crappy model.
simion314 4y ago
Count the number of GNOME forks and the number of KDE forks , then also consider the reason of those forks. Something happen with GNOME3, something that spliting one big community in more smaller ones, I am not sure if the "vision" is good if the first step is to kick out a big chunk of the community that do not agree 100% with your vision and half of your left community is screwing your vision with their unsupported customization. But it happens in other projects too, when big ego gain control, they will not accept they are wrong, then they are kicked out and you get back to normal (google the KDE cachew thingy)
- asoneth 4y ago
  I'm not convinced that the mere presence of forks is necessarily evidence of poor decisions. It's been eleven years since MATE and Cinnamon were forked from GNOME and they all seem to be relatively healthy projects.
hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
> It's foss, you can fork it And people did, twice! Some distros are offered in two main variants: a fork of Gnome 2, and a fork of Gnome 3. I believe this should give Gnome developers some food for thought.
laserdancepony 4y ago
Because we are able to fork it we are not allowed to criticize it? Warped worldview.

rolandog 4y ago

> Personally I would have preferred matrix/element but hey Discourse>mailing lists for me. Seems like there will be a Matrix bridge; FTA: > GNOME Infrastructure Team Coordinator Andrea Veri [...] > [...] also mentioned reducing fragmentation of the GNOME communities, along with improved integration, such as a bridge to Matrix for live chat. The move is part of a general modernization of the GNOME Project's infrastructure, which has also seen a move from IRC to Matrix and from cgit to GitLab.

okasaki 4y ago

Like what? I think it's generally agreed that their main product, the GNOME UI, uh, sucks.

henriquez 4y ago
I like it
- okasaki 4y ago
  Well, that's okay. But lots of people don't and I've never seen anyone using it. I've seen Unity, XFCE, i3, and KDE, but no GNOME.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    Look harder.
hactually 4y ago
I also like it. plenty of the guys I collaborate with do too. what data are you going from?
- flyingfences 4y ago
  Does the file picker show thumbnails yet?
  - teekert 4y ago
    That's it right, the one thing always brought up. What a horrible DE Gnome must be.
    - dsr_ 4y ago
      The missing feature/bug is small and local. The inability to fix it is an indicator of a cultural/organizational problem.
  - asoneth 4y ago
    No, but hopefully that issue is resolved soon: https://feaneron.com/2022/10/21/the-death-of-the-meme/ https://feaneron.com/2022/10/21/the-death-of-the-meme/
    - vanous 4y ago
      Omg, what will the GNOME haters do now... They will have to make up something new.
aliqot 4y ago
gnome was the chosen ui and now its terrible, aiming for a mythical apple convert who wants a touch friendly interface gnome 2 was the truth. im curious if id still be running gui's today if gnome didnt crap the bed so bad, im mainly in tmux now.
- teekert 4y ago
  Switch to Mate.
  - aliqot 4y ago
    these days if i must have a gui, it's xfce because it does the moves that got it to the dance, nothing more and nothing less.
- krylon 4y ago
  MATE is a fork of Gnome 2. I like it very much, and it's available on all major distros and on the BSD systems.
- malermeister 4y ago
  It's the perfect UI for this ex-MacBook user on the Surface. I'm glad somebody made a UI that actually works in both form factors. All that's missing is a swipe keyboard.
  - aliqot 4y ago
    see? my point.
    - malermeister 4y ago
      Not your point. We're not mythical creatures. We exist.
      - aliqot 4y ago
        this doesn't need to be a crips and bloods thing. some day you'll assimilate. everyone has their own timeline.
teekert 4y ago
You know that that is (your/an) opinion, right? I think it is not at all "generally agreed". It wouldn't be the default on most major distros if it did. And even if it was, why would you care even?
- ilyt 4y ago
  Inertia and being "good enough" is massive factor. Average user don't give a shit frankly
  - asoneth 4y ago
    It is certainly possible that GNOME is only popular because of legacy inertia, and that it will eventually be surpassed by other desktop environments as, by definition, inertia doesn't last forever. But it's worth acknowledging that it's also possible that a large number of people simply disagree with you and actively choose it on its own merits.
    - ilyt 4y ago
      The second factor is being "good enough". Not many people will move DE if they are 5, 10, even 25% better. The complaints are also mostly from power users Especially now where most of stuff you do is "switch between few full screen apps" so as long as access to the basics is not obstructed I'd imagine most users wouldn't care
kaba0 4y ago
GNOME UI is very snappy and pragmatic, in my opinion much better than macos on a laptop screen for example. Out of every OS, I will happily use Gnome on wayland without a second thought, and I’m not alone.

lapinot 4y ago

> they piss some people off by making radical choices No, people are not pissed off by the radicality of the choices. Stop taking people for uneducated jokers. People are pissed off because they understand the choices and do not agree with them or what they imply. Gamification, pushing apps and app stores, using the same disempowering concepts as mobile plateforms, changing design every so often for no good reason, focusing on simple design over features to the extreme which is again disempowering users, disregarding high performance requirements or assumptions such as recent hardware, stop pushing touchscreens. Nobody is arguing against having clean and accessible design for newcomers and nobody is saying that all of gnome is bad. It's just the same kind of critics that happen against wikimedia foundation or against mozilla: it is addressed to the management and the people that control the marketing and reads basically: cut the crap, stop doing futile stuff, your core things are good but they have been in better shape and would need more actual useful work, your goal is not only low entry barrier but also and very importantly high ceiling, if you target entry users your goal is to educate and teach. Also you are not a product (which needs to succeed and keep growing) but a tool, for users, by users, which solves a given goal and will be irrelevant when this goal becomes irrelevant, and that's ok.

soco 4y ago
The main reason I'm not using Linux at home is exactly updates - I don't want to be bothered for hours figuring out arcane error messages for each and every round of updates. When a distribution will be able to handle updates like the mobile platforms I will reconsider, and until then I'll handle this hassle only at work where I'm paid for it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- simion314 4y ago
  I don't care if you run Linux or not, but for a home computer try a LTS distro, maybe Kubuntu , don't install third party PPAs and you should not get any problems updating. Using an LTS means that you are not getting the new shinny thing that you might see on the internet though. But if your current setup works painlessly for you then keep using that.

ilyt 4y ago

It's not that easy, you will be tied to GNOME just by fact this or that app (for which there might not be replacement) picked GTK for its interface, so you have to at least go thru configuring it to look the same as the rest of your desktop. No matter which DE you chose you will be under GNOME's malady of design decisions. > They have a vision and stick to it for years. I'm happy they don't just feel offended by posts like yours and act like short term pleasers. If your design decisions are so bad there are multiple projects that migrate off you or stick to the old version (hell, GIMP is still stuck at GTKv2 IIRC, with GTKv3 slowly getting there) then your "vision" might not be that great. Honestly GNOME is there because of inertia more than quality of the changes. > Personally I would have preferred matrix/element but hey Discourse>mailing lists for me. The interaction for randoms is much easier but I hate how much space it wastes. I wish there was "my desktop is not phone" default theme there...

malermeister 4y ago
Well yeah, if you use a gnome app, it'll look like a gnome app. In other news, if you use green paint, it'll paint things green.
- simion314 4y ago
  GTK was a GUI toolkit, it was DE agnostic and also cross platform (though it looked like shit). But as we can see from your comment GTK was captured by GNOME to be a GNOME exclusive project, if a change broke XFCE , GNOME people pretended they do not know what an XFCE is.
  - malermeister 4y ago
    GTK has long been under the GNOME umbrella. The XFCE folks are welcome to fork GTK to support their own use cases.
    - simion314 4y ago
      >GTK has long been under the GNOME umbrella. Did you know that GTK was a cross platform tookit, even on Windows and Mac OS? Andf you did not had to install GNOME on Windows to use a GTK app, because it was a tooklit for making apps, and GNOME was a project that combine GTK apps, and a window manager to make a DE. Many apps ported to Qt so I don't think there is a chance that GTK will get a viable fork, Qt will be the only cross platform toolkit

kkfx 4y ago

Discourse means a resource hungry (both on server and client terms) application unable to be integrated by anyone, with sugar eye graphics you do not get from mail due to mere lack of development. With emails you can have your own UI in your own desktop, a thing only very few know nowadays and even less know how powerful and free it is. Sometimes people see in-Emacs presentations and say "that's like magic", it's just the classic desktop model vs the modern ex-IBM crappy model.

simion314 4y ago

Count the number of GNOME forks and the number of KDE forks , then also consider the reason of those forks. Something happen with GNOME3, something that spliting one big community in more smaller ones, I am not sure if the "vision" is good if the first step is to kick out a big chunk of the community that do not agree 100% with your vision and half of your left community is screwing your vision with their unsupported customization. But it happens in other projects too, when big ego gain control, they will not accept they are wrong, then they are kicked out and you get back to normal (google the KDE cachew thingy)

asoneth 4y ago
I'm not convinced that the mere presence of forks is necessarily evidence of poor decisions. It's been eleven years since MATE and Cinnamon were forked from GNOME and they all seem to be relatively healthy projects.

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago

> It's foss, you can fork it And people did, twice! Some distros are offered in two main variants: a fork of Gnome 2, and a fork of Gnome 3. I believe this should give Gnome developers some food for thought.

laserdancepony 4y ago

Because we are able to fork it we are not allowed to criticize it? Warped worldview.