3 ms·

This is incorrect. iMessage is encrypted, the encryption is end-to-end, there are no backdoors. The unencrypted backup is a clear and annoying hole in the app

by olliej 4y ago

This is incorrect. iMessage is encrypted, the encryption is end-to-end, there are no backdoors. The unencrypted backup is a clear and annoying hole in the apple privacy story, but the non-e2ee iCloud backup does not include any messages (SMS, MMS, or iMessage), Contacts, Calendars, Notes, iCloud Photos, or health data. A local backup is local, and is protected by filesystem encryption on your local storage. So no, iMessage has no backdoors. Basic research would have showed that this claim was bogus.

alwayslikethis 4y ago
If my iPhone got run over by a truck, and I log in my apple ID to another iPhone, will I get my messages back?
- alxmng 4y ago
  Nope, unless you’re using iCloud backup, or your messages can be synced from other devices in the key ring.
  - jorvi 4y ago
    Via that same logic Telegram has ironclad E2E encryption ‘because secret chats’. 99% of people have iCloud backups turned on.
  - olliej 4y ago
    No this is the whole point: if you are using iCloud backups, your messages are not backed up. The _only_ online way to maintain your iMessages is (checks settings) "Messages in the Cloud", which is e2e encrypted - if you lose all your devices there is no recovery path except for the "iCloud Key Vault", but I honestly don't know if that can get you to a point where old messages can be recovered.
    - sneak 4y ago
      https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 Please read this article. The Messages in iCloud sync feature is e2e encrypted - but the sync key itself for the e2e is included in the (non-e2e) iCloud Backup which is done every night. From Apple themselves: > For Messages in iCloud, if you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your messages. This ensures you can recover your messages if you lose access to your Keychain and your trusted devices. When you turn off iCloud Backup, a new key is generated on your device to protect future messages and isn't stored by Apple. This is actually worse. It means that Apple has the cross-device Messages in iCloud sync key in effectively unencrypted form from the backup the night before - which means that they can decrypt the iMessages as they sync between your devices in realtime. This enables realtime iMessage surveillance because of this backdoor in the end to end crypto (the effectively unencrypted iCloud Backup, which includes the e2e keys for the Messages in iCloud feature). The technical term for this is "key escrow". When you escrow the key to the middle transit service that is supposedly end to end, you backdoor the end to end encryption.
- sneak 4y ago
  Yes. You can also do this even if you lose your Apple ID password.
lmm 4y ago
> iMessage is encrypted, the encryption is end-to-end, there are no backdoors. How would/could we know? If the NSA doesn't have a backdoor (whether that's in the non-public iMessage code, the hardware RNG on iPhones, or somewhere else), what are they even doing all day?
- sneak 4y ago
  We know authoritatively. Buy a new iPhone and create a new Apple ID. Install an app (which automatically logs you in to iCloud and automatically enables iCloud backup). Wait 24 hours plugged in to AC power. Remove the SIM card and throw the iPhone into the sea. Forget the password for the Apple ID. Buy a new iPhone, and get Apple to reset the Apple ID password using PII/SMS/whatever. Log in and restore your iCloud backup. Your messages are still right there, and you have provided no key material. Apple has them in plaintext or plaintext-equivalent.
  - greenicon 4y ago
    Yes, this is the back door, if you want to call it that. iCloud backups are not encrypted and contain key material.
sneak 4y ago
iCloud Backup is effectively unencrypted and on by default, and sends the end device keys to Apple. Apple knows this, and went about encrypting iCloud Backups (like Google does on Android) but then stopped to preserve this vulnerability to avoid antagonizing the FBI, leaving Apple in possession of cleartext endpoint keys of all of their customers. Approximately nobody uses local iOS backups because iCloud Backup is enabled by default (even if you don't want to use iCloud and only log in with your Apple ID to install apps in the App Store). If the middle relay service has the keys, it's not end to end encrypted. The non-e2ee iCloud Backup does include your photos, includes your messages (if you have Messages in iCloud disabled) or includes your message sync keys (which are equivalent to your messages) if you have Messages in iCloud enabled. Your photos, contacts, calendars, notes, etc are never end to end encrypted and don't even pretend to be. Even if you disable iCloud Backup and do only local backups: everyone you iMessage with will have iCloud Backup still enabled, sending either the sync keys (Messages in iCloud on) or the messages themselves (Messages in iCloud off) to Apple in plaintext in the backup that is done automatically each night.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
miroljub 4y ago
> iMessage is encrypted, the encryption is end-to-end, there are no backdoors. In Germany, we have a saying: "Wer glaubt wird selig." which could be translated as something like: "Blessed are they who believe."

by olliej 4y ago

alwayslikethis 4y ago

If my iPhone got run over by a truck, and I log in my apple ID to another iPhone, will I get my messages back?

alxmng 4y ago
Nope, unless you’re using iCloud backup, or your messages can be synced from other devices in the key ring.
- jorvi 4y ago
  Via that same logic Telegram has ironclad E2E encryption ‘because secret chats’. 99% of people have iCloud backups turned on.
- olliej 4y ago
  No this is the whole point: if you are using iCloud backups, your messages are not backed up. The _only_ online way to maintain your iMessages is (checks settings) "Messages in the Cloud", which is e2e encrypted - if you lose all your devices there is no recovery path except for the "iCloud Key Vault", but I honestly don't know if that can get you to a point where old messages can be recovered.
  - sneak 4y ago
    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 Please read this article. The Messages in iCloud sync feature is e2e encrypted - but the sync key itself for the e2e is included in the (non-e2e) iCloud Backup which is done every night. From Apple themselves: > For Messages in iCloud, if you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your messages. This ensures you can recover your messages if you lose access to your Keychain and your trusted devices. When you turn off iCloud Backup, a new key is generated on your device to protect future messages and isn't stored by Apple. This is actually worse. It means that Apple has the cross-device Messages in iCloud sync key in effectively unencrypted form from the backup the night before - which means that they can decrypt the iMessages as they sync between your devices in realtime. This enables realtime iMessage surveillance because of this backdoor in the end to end crypto (the effectively unencrypted iCloud Backup, which includes the e2e keys for the Messages in iCloud feature). The technical term for this is "key escrow". When you escrow the key to the middle transit service that is supposedly end to end, you backdoor the end to end encryption.
sneak 4y ago
Yes. You can also do this even if you lose your Apple ID password.

lmm 4y ago

> iMessage is encrypted, the encryption is end-to-end, there are no backdoors. How would/could we know? If the NSA doesn't have a backdoor (whether that's in the non-public iMessage code, the hardware RNG on iPhones, or somewhere else), what are they even doing all day?

sneak 4y ago
We know authoritatively. Buy a new iPhone and create a new Apple ID. Install an app (which automatically logs you in to iCloud and automatically enables iCloud backup). Wait 24 hours plugged in to AC power. Remove the SIM card and throw the iPhone into the sea. Forget the password for the Apple ID. Buy a new iPhone, and get Apple to reset the Apple ID password using PII/SMS/whatever. Log in and restore your iCloud backup. Your messages are still right there, and you have provided no key material. Apple has them in plaintext or plaintext-equivalent.
- greenicon 4y ago
  Yes, this is the back door, if you want to call it that. iCloud backups are not encrypted and contain key material.

sneak 4y ago

iCloud Backup is effectively unencrypted and on by default, and sends the end device keys to Apple. Apple knows this, and went about encrypting iCloud Backups (like Google does on Android) but then stopped to preserve this vulnerability to avoid antagonizing the FBI, leaving Apple in possession of cleartext endpoint keys of all of their customers. Approximately nobody uses local iOS backups because iCloud Backup is enabled by default (even if you don't want to use iCloud and only log in with your Apple ID to install apps in the App Store). If the middle relay service has the keys, it's not end to end encrypted. The non-e2ee iCloud Backup does include your photos, includes your messages (if you have Messages in iCloud disabled) or includes your message sync keys (which are equivalent to your messages) if you have Messages in iCloud enabled. Your photos, contacts, calendars, notes, etc are never end to end encrypted and don't even pretend to be. Even if you disable iCloud Backup and do only local backups: everyone you iMessage with will have iCloud Backup still enabled, sending either the sync keys (Messages in iCloud on) or the messages themselves (Messages in iCloud off) to Apple in plaintext in the backup that is done automatically each night.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

miroljub 4y ago

> iMessage is encrypted, the encryption is end-to-end, there are no backdoors. In Germany, we have a saying: "Wer glaubt wird selig." which could be translated as something like: "Blessed are they who believe."