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I fully agree with lettergram and disagree with naming capitalism as an 'enemy'. How do you think you're going to reduce poverty and create wealth without capi

I fully agree with lettergram and disagree with naming capitalism as an 'enemy'. How do you think you're going to reduce poverty and create wealth without capitalism?

pasquinelli 4y ago
the ussr and china both developed from feudalism without capitalism and lifted a huge number of people out of poverty. not advocating their system, (not not-advocating either), but they are counter examples.
- lettergram 4y ago
  hmmm arguably capitalism was still required. Both the USSR and China both went through (at different times!) great famines due to their collectivization of agriculture. Further, their agricultural practices in general were learned from the capitalist countries and neither produced / produce enough. Both the USSR and China did / currently rely heavily on food imports. Arguably, they only escaped feudalism because capitalistic countries provided enough cheap food to the global market to transition their economies off of mass labor in fields (the basis of feudalism).
  - pasquinelli 4y ago
    > Both the USSR and China both went through (at different times!) great famines due to their collectivization of agriculture. didn't the ussr squeeze those farmers so tight to get industral equipment out of the capitalists by trading grain? yes, the capitalists graciously supported the ussr, the cold war was actually a big hug! because they traded with capitalist nations they couldn't have existed without capitalism. sure, actually that was the theory at the time, that industrialized germany would join them in a mutually beneficial relationship. that didn't happen for some reason. but what if we flip it? because capitalist nations traded with slave states and feudal nations, they couldn't have existed without slavery and feudalsim. because capitalist nations trade with violently repressive plutocracies, they can't exist without violently repressive plutocracy. seem fair? how were china and the ussr organized is the actual question. maybe you assume technological development was caused by capitalism. personally i think that's putting the cart before the horse.
    - parineum 4y ago
      > that didn't happen for some reason. It was probably because they had to build a wall to keep the citizens of the territory they were occupying from escaping communism.
    - thenewthotness 4y ago
      How anyone in this day can still support such blatantly despotic nations is a mystery to me. Even if you believe capitalist nations are equally authoritarian, which they clearly aren’t, then you’d still have to admit that they at least have the decency to conceal it by not having concentration camps, political and religious persecution, dictators for life or just straight up starving their populace.
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    I thought the USSR went through famines because of the natural conditions, (drought and unusual coldness).
    - whoooooo123 4y ago
      3 to 5 million Ukrainians starved to death because the USSR deliberately cut off their food supplies in a targeted attempt to kill them.
      - lettergram 4y ago
        That’s not entirely true and is mostly propaganda pushed to create a “Ukrainian identity”. To put it simply, the famine was primarily impacting Cossacks, which were throughout southern Russia at the time. You can look up the famines and see it’s not specifically targeted. Though I do grant you, collective farming was the issue and it did have an undue impact in Ukraine.
    - baud147258 4y ago
      Didn't the Ukrainian famines happened because the URSS was also exporting grain at the same time to capitalist countries, in exchange for industrial development?
- shrubble 4y ago
  China:Four Pests campaign, other madness... total deaths over 40 million. Russia: purges, torture then murder of 'kulaks', Holodomor, Virgin Lands campaign, etc. Total deaths, estimate at least 30 million; Solzhenitsyn said 66 million. None of those combined 70 million+ made it out of poverty.
- funcDropShadow 4y ago
  And e.g. eastern Germany build the Berlin wall to hold back the masses of western Germans that also wanted to be lifted out of poverty? /sarcasm off Or was it the other way around?

I fully agree with lettergram and disagree with naming capitalism as an 'enemy'. How do you think you're going to reduce poverty and create wealth without capitalism?

pasquinelli 4y ago

the ussr and china both developed from feudalism without capitalism and lifted a huge number of people out of poverty. not advocating their system, (not not-advocating either), but they are counter examples.

lettergram 4y ago
hmmm arguably capitalism was still required. Both the USSR and China both went through (at different times!) great famines due to their collectivization of agriculture. Further, their agricultural practices in general were learned from the capitalist countries and neither produced / produce enough. Both the USSR and China did / currently rely heavily on food imports. Arguably, they only escaped feudalism because capitalistic countries provided enough cheap food to the global market to transition their economies off of mass labor in fields (the basis of feudalism).
- pasquinelli 4y ago
  > Both the USSR and China both went through (at different times!) great famines due to their collectivization of agriculture. didn't the ussr squeeze those farmers so tight to get industral equipment out of the capitalists by trading grain? yes, the capitalists graciously supported the ussr, the cold war was actually a big hug! because they traded with capitalist nations they couldn't have existed without capitalism. sure, actually that was the theory at the time, that industrialized germany would join them in a mutually beneficial relationship. that didn't happen for some reason. but what if we flip it? because capitalist nations traded with slave states and feudal nations, they couldn't have existed without slavery and feudalsim. because capitalist nations trade with violently repressive plutocracies, they can't exist without violently repressive plutocracy. seem fair? how were china and the ussr organized is the actual question. maybe you assume technological development was caused by capitalism. personally i think that's putting the cart before the horse.
  - parineum 4y ago
    > that didn't happen for some reason. It was probably because they had to build a wall to keep the citizens of the territory they were occupying from escaping communism.
  - thenewthotness 4y ago
    How anyone in this day can still support such blatantly despotic nations is a mystery to me. Even if you believe capitalist nations are equally authoritarian, which they clearly aren’t, then you’d still have to admit that they at least have the decency to conceal it by not having concentration camps, political and religious persecution, dictators for life or just straight up starving their populace.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  I thought the USSR went through famines because of the natural conditions, (drought and unusual coldness).
  - whoooooo123 4y ago
    3 to 5 million Ukrainians starved to death because the USSR deliberately cut off their food supplies in a targeted attempt to kill them.
    - lettergram 4y ago
      That’s not entirely true and is mostly propaganda pushed to create a “Ukrainian identity”. To put it simply, the famine was primarily impacting Cossacks, which were throughout southern Russia at the time. You can look up the famines and see it’s not specifically targeted. Though I do grant you, collective farming was the issue and it did have an undue impact in Ukraine.
  - baud147258 4y ago
    Didn't the Ukrainian famines happened because the URSS was also exporting grain at the same time to capitalist countries, in exchange for industrial development?
shrubble 4y ago
China:Four Pests campaign, other madness... total deaths over 40 million. Russia: purges, torture then murder of 'kulaks', Holodomor, Virgin Lands campaign, etc. Total deaths, estimate at least 30 million; Solzhenitsyn said 66 million. None of those combined 70 million+ made it out of poverty.
funcDropShadow 4y ago
And e.g. eastern Germany build the Berlin wall to hold back the masses of western Germans that also wanted to be lifted out of poverty? /sarcasm off Or was it the other way around?