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In a world with perfect data available, I’d like to see the difference in suicide rates between suicidal kids who receive therapy and whose transitions are supp

In a world with perfect data available, I’d like to see the difference in suicide rates between suicidal kids who receive therapy and whose transitions are supported vs. kids who only receive therapy towards non-transitioning. The theory being that a non-zero number of kids seeking to transition are doing it for reasons they don’t fully understand, and helping them get to the root of their trauma may uncover something which steers them away from identifying as transgender. Only because I have heard of people regretting their transition.

heavyset_go 4y ago
People said the same thing about gay youths years ago, down to the "trauma made them gay" and trying to send kids to sexuality non-affirming reparative therapy to fix their brains. I'd imagine that this plan would work as well as conversion therapy does. It's worth noting that every major medical association in the United States has come out in favor of affirming a youth's sexual orientation and gender identity and against the practice of conversion therapy. This list includes: > American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry; American Academy of Nursing; American Academy of Pediatrics; American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy; American College of Physicians; American Counseling Association; American Medical Association; American Osteopathic Association; American Psychiatric Association; American Psychoanalytic Association; American Psychological Association; National Association of Social Workers.
- lwansbrough 4y ago
  Uhh, okay. You said conversion therapy, not me. I'm just talking about therapists taking a neutral non-affirmative position on a child's gender identity and trying to assess core trauma before anything else.
  - Nullabillity 4y ago
    You're describing conversion therapy so they called it conversion therapy.
    - lwansbrough 4y ago
      No, you're trying to box it as conversion therapy. I'm just talking about therapy. Not conversion therapy, not gender affirmation therapy. I think it's wrong to assume a person has a misguided view about their own gender (the position of conversion therapists), but I also think it's wrong to assume they don't (the position of GAT). In order to understand a person's ability to judge their own gender (especially an impressionable teenager who does not have all of their mental faculties fully developed), we have to understand any other factors which may have an effect on their feelings. This is not advocating for them to remain their gender at birth, nor is it advocating for them to "be what they feel." It's about understanding why they feel the way they do, and helping them recognize any trauma which may impact their feelings one way or the other. I recognize this is a high bar for therapists because even well meaning people like yourself can't seem to grasp the nuance.
      - heavyset_go 4y ago
        Doctors give assessments based on a patient's experiences, symptoms, histories that include trauma, these things are discussed and examined. Gender dysphoria is a diagnosable condition with defined criteria of symptoms. > but I also think it's wrong to assume they don't (the position of GAT). In order to understand a person's ability to judge their own gender (especially an impressionable teenager who does not have all of their mental faculties fully developed), we have to understand any other factors which may have an effect on their feelings. I'm not sure why you don't think this happens, and it seems to come from a weird strawman or misunderstanding of what gender therapy is, given that all of those things are explored in gender therapy. > What gender therapy isn’t > A gender therapist shouldn’t attempt to diagnose you because of your identity or try to change your mind. > A gender therapist should provide information and support that can help you better understand and connect with core aspects of yourself. > Gender therapists don’t subscribe to the idea that there’s a “right way” to experience, embody, or express gender. > They shouldn’t limit or presume treatment options or goals based on the labels or language used to describe yourself. > Gender therapy should focus on supporting your personal experience of self and relationship with your body. > A gender therapist should never presume your gender, force you into a gender, or attempt to convince you that you’re not a particular gender There are plenty of people who are questioning their sexualities and genders, many of them will not turn out to be LGBT, and there isn't an epidemic of therapists encouraging confused people to think that they're gay or trans. I wouldn't say that's a neutral position for a therapist either, it's a bit like saying that if a patient were bleeding from a hole in their leg that the neutral position would be forgoing a tourniquet in favor of questioning whether they even need blood in the first place. Neutral therapists would acknowledge that gender therapy exists, along with plenty of other options, and would help their patients receive the care that's appropriate for them. [1] https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/gender-therapy#what-it-isnt https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/gender-therapy...
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    You're describing how psychoanalysis is used for conversion therapy[1]: >Haldeman writes that psychoanalytic treatment of homosexuality is exemplified by the work of Irving Bieber et al. in Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. They advocated long-term therapy aimed at resolving the unconscious childhood conflicts that they considered responsible for homosexuality. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy#Psychoanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy#Psychoanaly...

heavyset_go 4y ago

People said the same thing about gay youths years ago, down to the "trauma made them gay" and trying to send kids to sexuality non-affirming reparative therapy to fix their brains. I'd imagine that this plan would work as well as conversion therapy does. It's worth noting that every major medical association in the United States has come out in favor of affirming a youth's sexual orientation and gender identity and against the practice of conversion therapy. This list includes: > American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry; American Academy of Nursing; American Academy of Pediatrics; American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy; American College of Physicians; American Counseling Association; American Medical Association; American Osteopathic Association; American Psychiatric Association; American Psychoanalytic Association; American Psychological Association; National Association of Social Workers.

lwansbrough 4y ago
Uhh, okay. You said conversion therapy, not me. I'm just talking about therapists taking a neutral non-affirmative position on a child's gender identity and trying to assess core trauma before anything else.
- Nullabillity 4y ago
  You're describing conversion therapy so they called it conversion therapy.
  - lwansbrough 4y ago
    No, you're trying to box it as conversion therapy. I'm just talking about therapy. Not conversion therapy, not gender affirmation therapy. I think it's wrong to assume a person has a misguided view about their own gender (the position of conversion therapists), but I also think it's wrong to assume they don't (the position of GAT). In order to understand a person's ability to judge their own gender (especially an impressionable teenager who does not have all of their mental faculties fully developed), we have to understand any other factors which may have an effect on their feelings. This is not advocating for them to remain their gender at birth, nor is it advocating for them to "be what they feel." It's about understanding why they feel the way they do, and helping them recognize any trauma which may impact their feelings one way or the other. I recognize this is a high bar for therapists because even well meaning people like yourself can't seem to grasp the nuance.
    - heavyset_go 4y ago
      Doctors give assessments based on a patient's experiences, symptoms, histories that include trauma, these things are discussed and examined. Gender dysphoria is a diagnosable condition with defined criteria of symptoms. > but I also think it's wrong to assume they don't (the position of GAT). In order to understand a person's ability to judge their own gender (especially an impressionable teenager who does not have all of their mental faculties fully developed), we have to understand any other factors which may have an effect on their feelings. I'm not sure why you don't think this happens, and it seems to come from a weird strawman or misunderstanding of what gender therapy is, given that all of those things are explored in gender therapy. > What gender therapy isn’t > A gender therapist shouldn’t attempt to diagnose you because of your identity or try to change your mind. > A gender therapist should provide information and support that can help you better understand and connect with core aspects of yourself. > Gender therapists don’t subscribe to the idea that there’s a “right way” to experience, embody, or express gender. > They shouldn’t limit or presume treatment options or goals based on the labels or language used to describe yourself. > Gender therapy should focus on supporting your personal experience of self and relationship with your body. > A gender therapist should never presume your gender, force you into a gender, or attempt to convince you that you’re not a particular gender There are plenty of people who are questioning their sexualities and genders, many of them will not turn out to be LGBT, and there isn't an epidemic of therapists encouraging confused people to think that they're gay or trans. I wouldn't say that's a neutral position for a therapist either, it's a bit like saying that if a patient were bleeding from a hole in their leg that the neutral position would be forgoing a tourniquet in favor of questioning whether they even need blood in the first place. Neutral therapists would acknowledge that gender therapy exists, along with plenty of other options, and would help their patients receive the care that's appropriate for them. [1] https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/gender-therapy#what-it-isnt https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/gender-therapy...
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  You're describing how psychoanalysis is used for conversion therapy[1]: >Haldeman writes that psychoanalytic treatment of homosexuality is exemplified by the work of Irving Bieber et al. in Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. They advocated long-term therapy aimed at resolving the unconscious childhood conflicts that they considered responsible for homosexuality. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy#Psychoanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy#Psychoanaly...