3 ms·

I cannot tell if you are arguing in good faith or if this is some very clever wit. Comparing vPro to Stalin, Mao, the Holocaust and more is really not serving

by Alupis 4y ago

I cannot tell if you are arguing in good faith or if this is some very clever wit. Comparing vPro to Stalin, Mao, the Holocaust and more is really not serving to forward your argument... particularly while you have an iPhone or Android device in your pocket, watch curated TV content on your Smart TV, and drive your modern car into the office where you use your Windows or OSX computer and ISP provided DNS. This would definitely count in the "performative theatrics" category of any normal book. Why is this age so sensationalized? Words are becoming meaningless due to overuse, abuse and re-definition to fit convenient arguments...

kragen 4y ago
I am not comparing vPro to Mao, and no reasonable person could construe my comment as comparing vPro to Mao. I am comparing vPro (and similar hardware backdoors) to the totalitarian central government control established by the PRC in the early 01950s, in compliance with widely accepted Communist doctrine, which resulted in inevitable atrocities several years later — in this case, the Great Leap Forward, which was the worst famine in human history. Mao was far from unique among heads of totalitarian states in carrying out mass atrocities. Like hardware backdoors today, totalitarianism was new enough at the time that reasonable people could disagree about its likely effects, but in retrospect the causality is obvious. I do not have an iPhone or Android device in my pocket (although I do carry one on special occasions), watch "curated" TV content on a "Smart TV", drive a modern car, or use [Microsoft] Windows or OSX. Furthermore, there is no basis for you to suspect that I do these things; you are attempting to drag HN down into the slime of Twitter-style "gotchas" instead of attempting to rise to the level of collaborative exploration of the truth. Moreover, even if I did suffer these afflictions, it wouldn't make my argument invalid — even if it were not so wide of the mark, your inept attempt at a rebuttal is at best an argumentum ad hominem of the same sort as those who dismiss Noam Chomsky's criticism of US foreign policy on the basis that he pays US income tax. I am disappointed in your total failure to engage in rational argument. You're arguing at the animal layer of vague emotional associations rather than reasoning about causes and effects. Please, try to do better. (I do use ISP-provided DNS, which is a problem but not in the same category.)
- Alupis 4y ago
  > I am disappointed in your total failure to engage in rational argument I really fail to see how one could believe it rational to discuss Mao, Holocaust, and Stalin in the same conversation as computer processors. This conversation can only be taken as extreme hyperbole.
  - kragen 4y ago
    Dismissing the argument because you're not familiar with it doesn't demonstrate anything but your own ignorance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust Undoubtedly when Mao drove the Kuomintang out of the Mainland, there were people who "really fail[ed] to see how one could believe it rational" to fear that within a decade Mao would starve to death ten times as many innocent people as the Kuomintang had ever murdered, particularly since such a large democide had never happened before in history. Then, it happened.
anonym29 4y ago
More strawman. >particularly while you have an iPhone or Android device in your pocket - I don't. >watch curated TV content on your Smart TV - I watch media from physical discs on a TV with no network interface. >and drive your modern car into the office - I drive a car made before 2005. >where you use your Windows or OSX computer - None of my personal machines run any software developed by Microsoft or Apple. >and ISP provided DNS. - I do not. Also, I have privacy expectations from my personal devices that I do not have of my workplace devices - privacy expectations that are threatened by ME/PSP.
- Alupis 4y ago
  You are either the Gray Man or you live in a cabin in the woods... or you're not quite as clever at disconnecting as you might think. If you use technology in 2022, it's reporting on you. It is that simple. And everyone, despite their best efforts, uses some technology. These were contrived examples to highlight all the different mundane items in our daily lives that track and report on our behavior, habits, data, etc. Most of these we do not even consider as hostile devices or services... yet they are. In your example you buy DVD's... where did you get them? How did you pay for them? You were tracked and reported despite trying to be clever. It is truly hard, next to impossible to operate in our society with total privacy, unfortunately. This sidebar was brought on by someone bizarrely trying to connect IME first to the Holocaust, and then to Stalin and Mao, which I will never understand. IME isn't the only privacy hill to die on... and frankly, that hill already has too many bodies on it.
  - anonym29 4y ago
    >If you use technology in 2022, it's reporting on you. Categorically impossible statement to apply universally. I have several machines that do not have the physical hardware necessary for any kind of networking. I also have multiple machines that do not have ME fully functional. My most upstream local router, running open source firmware, has whitelist rules for outbound traffic and blocks by default. I also have detailed traffic analysis running 24/7 on my other routers, running different open source firmware. I regularly review for any traffic that I cannot definitively associate to my own activity, and I regularly mix and match the network route my devices take outbound to look for anomalies. >In your example you buy DVD's... where did you get them? How did you pay for them? As opposed to copying a friend's discs, or receiving them as gifts, both of which apply to a nonzero number of my movies and shows? What if I did buy them and paid in cash? Not cash received from an ATM or bank teller, of course, but cash received as payment from a customer at a farmer's market? >IME isn't the only privacy hill to die on... and frankly, that hill already has too many bodies on it. Privacy is somewhat like security in that you're never truly "done" implementing it. That's not an excuse not to strive for it. While it remains unproven that ME/PSP actually is a functional backdoor, there's no good reason to trust these subsystems. I have personally observed Ryzen-based systems attempting to send outbound traffic while the system was hibernating (before you ask, I will not reveal any metadata about this traffic publicly for obvious reasons.) I know I personally would gladly pay 3x MSRP for Ryzen chips without the PSP. I know many other people who would pay well above MSRP for modern Intel/AMD chips that do not have these subsystems. Market demand is there. The fact that neither major chip producer even offers the option to purchase chips without these subsystems should absolutely continue to arouse suspicion. You are correct that there are many other issues like writing style analysis, timing analysis (including netflow metadata being sold by your ISP to Team Cymru), many entire threads could be filled with software privacy threats, etc, but again - that's not good justification to just throw your hands up and stop caring altogether. Privacy is an uphill battle in a losing war in today's world, but I for one will not stop fighting. I have a natural human right to privacy, not granted by any man, nor a million men calling themselves a government, and I will stop at nothing to exercise that right. To your point, that insistence does push me closer and closer to the "cabin in the woods" lifestyle than a vast majority would be comfortable with.

by Alupis 4y ago

kragen 4y ago

I am not comparing vPro to Mao, and no reasonable person could construe my comment as comparing vPro to Mao. I am comparing vPro (and similar hardware backdoors) to the totalitarian central government control established by the PRC in the early 01950s, in compliance with widely accepted Communist doctrine, which resulted in inevitable atrocities several years later — in this case, the Great Leap Forward, which was the worst famine in human history. Mao was far from unique among heads of totalitarian states in carrying out mass atrocities. Like hardware backdoors today, totalitarianism was new enough at the time that reasonable people could disagree about its likely effects, but in retrospect the causality is obvious. I do not have an iPhone or Android device in my pocket (although I do carry one on special occasions), watch "curated" TV content on a "Smart TV", drive a modern car, or use [Microsoft] Windows or OSX. Furthermore, there is no basis for you to suspect that I do these things; you are attempting to drag HN down into the slime of Twitter-style "gotchas" instead of attempting to rise to the level of collaborative exploration of the truth. Moreover, even if I did suffer these afflictions, it wouldn't make my argument invalid — even if it were not so wide of the mark, your inept attempt at a rebuttal is at best an argumentum ad hominem of the same sort as those who dismiss Noam Chomsky's criticism of US foreign policy on the basis that he pays US income tax. I am disappointed in your total failure to engage in rational argument. You're arguing at the animal layer of vague emotional associations rather than reasoning about causes and effects. Please, try to do better. (I do use ISP-provided DNS, which is a problem but not in the same category.)

Alupis 4y ago
> I am disappointed in your total failure to engage in rational argument I really fail to see how one could believe it rational to discuss Mao, Holocaust, and Stalin in the same conversation as computer processors. This conversation can only be taken as extreme hyperbole.
- kragen 4y ago
  Dismissing the argument because you're not familiar with it doesn't demonstrate anything but your own ignorance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust Undoubtedly when Mao drove the Kuomintang out of the Mainland, there were people who "really fail[ed] to see how one could believe it rational" to fear that within a decade Mao would starve to death ten times as many innocent people as the Kuomintang had ever murdered, particularly since such a large democide had never happened before in history. Then, it happened.

anonym29 4y ago

More strawman. >particularly while you have an iPhone or Android device in your pocket - I don't. >watch curated TV content on your Smart TV - I watch media from physical discs on a TV with no network interface. >and drive your modern car into the office - I drive a car made before 2005. >where you use your Windows or OSX computer - None of my personal machines run any software developed by Microsoft or Apple. >and ISP provided DNS. - I do not. Also, I have privacy expectations from my personal devices that I do not have of my workplace devices - privacy expectations that are threatened by ME/PSP.

Alupis 4y ago
You are either the Gray Man or you live in a cabin in the woods... or you're not quite as clever at disconnecting as you might think. If you use technology in 2022, it's reporting on you. It is that simple. And everyone, despite their best efforts, uses some technology. These were contrived examples to highlight all the different mundane items in our daily lives that track and report on our behavior, habits, data, etc. Most of these we do not even consider as hostile devices or services... yet they are. In your example you buy DVD's... where did you get them? How did you pay for them? You were tracked and reported despite trying to be clever. It is truly hard, next to impossible to operate in our society with total privacy, unfortunately. This sidebar was brought on by someone bizarrely trying to connect IME first to the Holocaust, and then to Stalin and Mao, which I will never understand. IME isn't the only privacy hill to die on... and frankly, that hill already has too many bodies on it.
- anonym29 4y ago
  >If you use technology in 2022, it's reporting on you. Categorically impossible statement to apply universally. I have several machines that do not have the physical hardware necessary for any kind of networking. I also have multiple machines that do not have ME fully functional. My most upstream local router, running open source firmware, has whitelist rules for outbound traffic and blocks by default. I also have detailed traffic analysis running 24/7 on my other routers, running different open source firmware. I regularly review for any traffic that I cannot definitively associate to my own activity, and I regularly mix and match the network route my devices take outbound to look for anomalies. >In your example you buy DVD's... where did you get them? How did you pay for them? As opposed to copying a friend's discs, or receiving them as gifts, both of which apply to a nonzero number of my movies and shows? What if I did buy them and paid in cash? Not cash received from an ATM or bank teller, of course, but cash received as payment from a customer at a farmer's market? >IME isn't the only privacy hill to die on... and frankly, that hill already has too many bodies on it. Privacy is somewhat like security in that you're never truly "done" implementing it. That's not an excuse not to strive for it. While it remains unproven that ME/PSP actually is a functional backdoor, there's no good reason to trust these subsystems. I have personally observed Ryzen-based systems attempting to send outbound traffic while the system was hibernating (before you ask, I will not reveal any metadata about this traffic publicly for obvious reasons.) I know I personally would gladly pay 3x MSRP for Ryzen chips without the PSP. I know many other people who would pay well above MSRP for modern Intel/AMD chips that do not have these subsystems. Market demand is there. The fact that neither major chip producer even offers the option to purchase chips without these subsystems should absolutely continue to arouse suspicion. You are correct that there are many other issues like writing style analysis, timing analysis (including netflow metadata being sold by your ISP to Team Cymru), many entire threads could be filled with software privacy threats, etc, but again - that's not good justification to just throw your hands up and stop caring altogether. Privacy is an uphill battle in a losing war in today's world, but I for one will not stop fighting. I have a natural human right to privacy, not granted by any man, nor a million men calling themselves a government, and I will stop at nothing to exercise that right. To your point, that insistence does push me closer and closer to the "cabin in the woods" lifestyle than a vast majority would be comfortable with.