3 ms·

Sure, I just wonder if there actually are any such statements. Seems like usually people point to statements that are Elon tweeting "I think it might be ready n

by wilg 4y ago

Sure, I just wonder if there actually are any such statements. Seems like usually people point to statements that are Elon tweeting "I think it might be ready next year".

tptacek 4y ago
The article quotes Elon Musk as having said "Like we’re not saying that that’s quite ready to have no one behind the wheel". That statement is presented as exculpatory for Tesla, despite the fact that there's miles of safety margin between "nobody needs to be behind the wheel" and "autopilot is safe to rely on as advertised in all circumstances". If that's what's getting Tesla off the hook, chances are, they've got substantially worse things in their files. The other thing is, the messages Tesla sends to the market can be contradictory; prosecutors will home in on the least responsible things they say, and it'll be up to the defense to establish "no, what we really meant, and what every reasonable person took away from what we said, was this banal statement we made in the manual for the car". That'll be tricky, because people have obviously been killed by Tesla's "autopilot" feature, which they were dumb enough to name "autopilot". Who knows if there's a real case here, though? There may not be!
- wilg 4y ago
  What I'm saying is that I don't actually think Tesla or Elon has suggested you use Autopilot (or Full-Self Driving Beta) in any way other than the approved way. Plus, when enabling either feature (which are opt-in) a very clear warning is displayed which you must agree to. So I just don't know who is like, "well, I bought the thing and read the warning and agreed to it but just assumed it was fully autonomous because it's called Autopilot and therefore it is reasonable for me not to pay attention".
  - tptacek 4y ago
    "Very clear warnings" in manuals and in car displays aren't a get-out-of-jail-free card. If Tesla never made any communications that contradicted those displays, they'll probably be fine, at least with respect to FSD safety.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
      I don't know what the standards are in the automotive field, but in medical devices labeling (including product manuals) is considered the absolute last resort when attempting to mitigate a hazard. The odds of the FDA or any other regulatory body letting you off the hook after your device caused an Injury to Patient or loss of life because "we said in the manual to not do that" is effectively zero.
  - FireBeyond 4y ago
    > What I'm saying is that I don't actually think Tesla or Elon has suggested you use Autopilot (or Full-Self Driving Beta) in any way other than the approved way. Tesla does that quite regularly. Summon - "bring your car to you while you deal with a fussing child" (fine print buried far away, "pay complete attention to car"). FSD - "the driver is only in the seat for legal purposes - the car is driving itself".
    - wilg 4y ago
      I'm not sure about your first quote (the only google results were for this comment), but the second one was a demonstration of a feature that was not and is not available!
      - FireBeyond 4y ago
        Source on the first quote: https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/299670-tesla-smart-summon-and-curious-owners-what-could-go-wrong https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/299670-tesla-smart-summo...
        wilg 4y ago
        OK, so what you said is wrong, since the Elon quote is: > [Smart Summon is] the perfect feature to use if you have an overflowing shopping cart, are dealing with a fussy child, or simply don’t want to walk to your car through the rain. … [But] those using Smart Summon must remain responsible for the car and monitor it and its surroundings at all times. So he explicitly explains that you have to monitor it, and does not bury it in the fine print as you claim. Hardly a smoking gun, even if you really are contorting yourself to find something objectionable in this quite.
        FireBeyond 4y ago
        No, the Elon quote is as you say. The Tesla marketing page mentions fussy children. The 'full attention and responsibility' is buried away elsewhere.
klyrs 4y ago
He's not just a random speculator tweeting on the internet. He acts as a spokesperson for the company using his personal twitter account. He can't* merely escape liability by posting shitmemes in between PR statements & baiting investors. * I mean... if you or I were to operate a company like that, we'd get destroyed, anyway. Whether or not Musk is too rich to face any real consequences for, say, shooting somebody on 5th ave, is an open question.
- wilg 4y ago
  I'm not saying he would escape liability for shitposting. I'm saying that these statements are all relatively clearly "forward-looking statements".
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Moreover, when I was promoted to Staff Engineer at a certain company, I had to go through training to drive home the point that if I spoke in public, about company business, I was considered a representative of the company and my statements could lead to legal action against the company because my position was considered a Management-level role. Whether or not he faces any real consequences (unlikely), it will be interesting to see what impact it has on the corporation.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  > He acts as a spokesperson for the company using his personal twitter account. Tesla has made corporate filings that @elonmusk is an official communications channel of the company. That's why he was required to have a lawyer vet all his Twitter posts. Even though he plainly and openly ignored that.
TheCoelacanth 4y ago
Well, their ads say that the cars have "Full Self Driving". That alone meets all the criteria for fraud.

by wilg 4y ago

Sure, I just wonder if there actually are any such statements. Seems like usually people point to statements that are Elon tweeting "I think it might be ready next year".

tptacek 4y ago

The article quotes Elon Musk as having said "Like we’re not saying that that’s quite ready to have no one behind the wheel". That statement is presented as exculpatory for Tesla, despite the fact that there's miles of safety margin between "nobody needs to be behind the wheel" and "autopilot is safe to rely on as advertised in all circumstances". If that's what's getting Tesla off the hook, chances are, they've got substantially worse things in their files. The other thing is, the messages Tesla sends to the market can be contradictory; prosecutors will home in on the least responsible things they say, and it'll be up to the defense to establish "no, what we really meant, and what every reasonable person took away from what we said, was this banal statement we made in the manual for the car". That'll be tricky, because people have obviously been killed by Tesla's "autopilot" feature, which they were dumb enough to name "autopilot". Who knows if there's a real case here, though? There may not be!

wilg 4y ago
What I'm saying is that I don't actually think Tesla or Elon has suggested you use Autopilot (or Full-Self Driving Beta) in any way other than the approved way. Plus, when enabling either feature (which are opt-in) a very clear warning is displayed which you must agree to. So I just don't know who is like, "well, I bought the thing and read the warning and agreed to it but just assumed it was fully autonomous because it's called Autopilot and therefore it is reasonable for me not to pay attention".
- tptacek 4y ago
  "Very clear warnings" in manuals and in car displays aren't a get-out-of-jail-free card. If Tesla never made any communications that contradicted those displays, they'll probably be fine, at least with respect to FSD safety.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    I don't know what the standards are in the automotive field, but in medical devices labeling (including product manuals) is considered the absolute last resort when attempting to mitigate a hazard. The odds of the FDA or any other regulatory body letting you off the hook after your device caused an Injury to Patient or loss of life because "we said in the manual to not do that" is effectively zero.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  > What I'm saying is that I don't actually think Tesla or Elon has suggested you use Autopilot (or Full-Self Driving Beta) in any way other than the approved way. Tesla does that quite regularly. Summon - "bring your car to you while you deal with a fussing child" (fine print buried far away, "pay complete attention to car"). FSD - "the driver is only in the seat for legal purposes - the car is driving itself".
  - wilg 4y ago
    I'm not sure about your first quote (the only google results were for this comment), but the second one was a demonstration of a feature that was not and is not available!
    - FireBeyond 4y ago
      Source on the first quote: https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/299670-tesla-smart-summon-and-curious-owners-what-could-go-wrong https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/299670-tesla-smart-summo...
      - wilg 4y ago
        OK, so what you said is wrong, since the Elon quote is: > [Smart Summon is] the perfect feature to use if you have an overflowing shopping cart, are dealing with a fussy child, or simply don’t want to walk to your car through the rain. … [But] those using Smart Summon must remain responsible for the car and monitor it and its surroundings at all times. So he explicitly explains that you have to monitor it, and does not bury it in the fine print as you claim. Hardly a smoking gun, even if you really are contorting yourself to find something objectionable in this quite.
        FireBeyond 4y ago
        No, the Elon quote is as you say. The Tesla marketing page mentions fussy children. The 'full attention and responsibility' is buried away elsewhere.

klyrs 4y ago

He's not just a random speculator tweeting on the internet. He acts as a spokesperson for the company using his personal twitter account. He can't* merely escape liability by posting shitmemes in between PR statements & baiting investors. * I mean... if you or I were to operate a company like that, we'd get destroyed, anyway. Whether or not Musk is too rich to face any real consequences for, say, shooting somebody on 5th ave, is an open question.

wilg 4y ago
I'm not saying he would escape liability for shitposting. I'm saying that these statements are all relatively clearly "forward-looking statements".
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
Moreover, when I was promoted to Staff Engineer at a certain company, I had to go through training to drive home the point that if I spoke in public, about company business, I was considered a representative of the company and my statements could lead to legal action against the company because my position was considered a Management-level role. Whether or not he faces any real consequences (unlikely), it will be interesting to see what impact it has on the corporation.
FireBeyond 4y ago
> He acts as a spokesperson for the company using his personal twitter account. Tesla has made corporate filings that @elonmusk is an official communications channel of the company. That's why he was required to have a lawyer vet all his Twitter posts. Even though he plainly and openly ignored that.

TheCoelacanth 4y ago

Well, their ads say that the cars have "Full Self Driving". That alone meets all the criteria for fraud.