4 ms·

We're talking references here, so this gets very sticky. They're not just wondering "were you employed at X from dates Y to Z", they want to get that person's o

by chias 4y ago

We're talking references here, so this gets very sticky. They're not just wondering "were you employed at X from dates Y to Z", they want to get that person's opinion on what kind of employee you are, then make a judgement call on whether that's the kind of employee they want to hire. If you move a judgement call of that kind to after the offer stage, then the offer letter becomes a lot less meaningful.

ghaff 4y ago
Yes. I give references that aren’t problematic from a tipping off current employer perspective. If references are going to factor into the employment decision it sort of has to be before the offer or what’s the point?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jlokier 4y ago
> If you move a judgement call of that kind to after the offer stage, then the offer letter becomes a lot less meaningful. That may be true, but if a potential employer gets current employer references before any offer is made, the candidate is at serious risk of unemployment (let go and no offer to replace it), or an uncomfortable change in relationships at the old job. The risk to the candidate is high. Besides, many offers are lowball without much room for negotiation. Why would a candidate take the risk, not even knowing if there's a good enough offer contingent on the reference? If a potential employer asked for a current-employer reference from me before making any offer, I would terminate the process even if I expect a great reference, because it shows the employer doesn't care about (or doesn't think about) the fundamentals from an employee's perspective, and that is a big clue that it's likely to be an awful place to work in other ways. A good employer doesn't act as if employer and employee are in equal positions with the same to lose. I've been jerked around by too many employers and potential ones who don't care about effect on their employees, sometimes at large financial cost to myself, so these days I'd just drop the company if they seem oblivious to how things affect the candidate. There are plenty of good ones who also pay well, and those are also the ones I'd rather help succeed. If it's just about the amount of the offer or level of the position, they always have the option to revise it up after they get a reference they like.
time_to_smile 4y ago
> they want to get that person's opinion on what kind of employee you are At least in the US such reference checks are impossible these days. To avoid litigation any serious company is going to: a.) have the call directed to an HR rep rather than the manager or any other employees b.) the HR rep will only verify title and dates of employment. I haven't heard of anyone doing the type of reference check you're describing since the very early 2000s.

by chias 4y ago

ghaff 4y ago

Yes. I give references that aren’t problematic from a tipping off current employer perspective. If references are going to factor into the employment decision it sort of has to be before the offer or what’s the point?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jlokier 4y ago

> If you move a judgement call of that kind to after the offer stage, then the offer letter becomes a lot less meaningful. That may be true, but if a potential employer gets current employer references before any offer is made, the candidate is at serious risk of unemployment (let go and no offer to replace it), or an uncomfortable change in relationships at the old job. The risk to the candidate is high. Besides, many offers are lowball without much room for negotiation. Why would a candidate take the risk, not even knowing if there's a good enough offer contingent on the reference? If a potential employer asked for a current-employer reference from me before making any offer, I would terminate the process even if I expect a great reference, because it shows the employer doesn't care about (or doesn't think about) the fundamentals from an employee's perspective, and that is a big clue that it's likely to be an awful place to work in other ways. A good employer doesn't act as if employer and employee are in equal positions with the same to lose. I've been jerked around by too many employers and potential ones who don't care about effect on their employees, sometimes at large financial cost to myself, so these days I'd just drop the company if they seem oblivious to how things affect the candidate. There are plenty of good ones who also pay well, and those are also the ones I'd rather help succeed. If it's just about the amount of the offer or level of the position, they always have the option to revise it up after they get a reference they like.

time_to_smile 4y ago

> they want to get that person's opinion on what kind of employee you are At least in the US such reference checks are impossible these days. To avoid litigation any serious company is going to: a.) have the call directed to an HR rep rather than the manager or any other employees b.) the HR rep will only verify title and dates of employment. I haven't heard of anyone doing the type of reference check you're describing since the very early 2000s.