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I wonder what the ultimate fate of apps will be. If browsers get great sandbox features and hardware acceleration with access to all sensors will there be a fut

I wonder what the ultimate fate of apps will be. If browsers get great sandbox features and hardware acceleration with access to all sensors will there be a future for apps? Apple is pretty incentivized to not allow that future to be realized so we’ll see. Though I do see the value of curation, reviews and exposure, it’s not really clear from me technically why you can’t side load apps onto iPhones easily.

chrisseaton 4y ago
What really is the relevant difference between an app and an installed website using browser APIs? When apps were introduced it seemed like a big difference, but now I'm not sure it is.
- rapind 4y ago
  You should ask Reddit. They really really want you to use their app instead of your browser, so there’s obviously something (like tracking).
  - alangibson 4y ago
    IMHO it comes down to push notifications. If you install the app then they can proactively annoy ... sorry ... engage you.
    - stevewatson301 4y ago
      Web browsers can do push notifications too, albeit they have to ask for consent first.
      - Shish2k 4y ago
        Not on iOS they can’t - iOS _requires_ developers to go through all the hassle, fees, and taxes of creating an App-Store App if they want to use what every other platform considers a “standard web browser feature"
        tessela 4y ago
        This 'hassle' will change in 2023 - https://webkit.org/blog/13152/webkit-features-in-safari-16-0/ https://webkit.org/blog/13152/webkit-features-in-safari-16-0... https://webkit.org/blog/12945/meet-web-push/ https://webkit.org/blog/12945/meet-web-push/
        AlexandrB 4y ago
        Meanwhile, in a previous thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33315308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33315308 I think website notifications in Safari will be fine for techies and others who use HN. But it will make many "normal" people's phones look like notification hell.
    - luuuzeta 4y ago
      >If you install the app then they can proactively annoy ... sorry ... engage you. I remember how I had all notifications and jingle bells on when I got my first smartphone back in 2015/2016. Nowadays turning off notifications is the first thing I do, and then turning them on for selected apps (e.g., phone, Telegram, etc). It helps I don't have social media apps in my phone, and whatever I use I access it in the browser (e.g., Twitter and Reddit).
- pjmlp 4y ago
  3D APIs, the best you can get is a PlayStation 3 like hardware, while on native you will get whatever the last version of Metal/Vulkan/DX 12 will give you. Don't expect ray tracing or mesh shaders coming to 3D Web during the next decade.
  - JoeyJoJoJr 4y ago
    I’d settle for PS3 quality experiences on mobile web. Most of my side projects are 2D games. It just want to deploy them to web and allow users on phones to easily play them full screen.
elforce002 4y ago
Interesting. Apple won't give up its golden goose without a fight. Nor Google by that matter. Remember that Google is basically the one investing lots of cash with chrome. They won't decimate their android devs nor their huge investment in the android ecosystem. Heck , by a business perspective alone, they have +80% of the mobile landscape. Are they going to give up this edge just because? Also, the app/play stores sold convenience, easiness, and confidence of app installs. Gen Z basically knows how to use app/play stores to find what they want and there's an article stating they're even using TikTok to search for things. That part over there tells you where do you need to put your $$$. Bet money google is trying to come up with ways to attract that segment. We as devs have to be prepared for everything society throws at us. From improving our web dev skills to learn a mobile framework should the occasion arise (RN, Flutter, Maui? tauri probably?). I personally, as with Meta and metaverse as of this moment, don't see myself using web installs to mobile apps any time soon. Web apps have their purposes and mobile apps have theirs too. More diversification (platforms) is better.
- amadeuspagel 4y ago
  Google doesn't need the play store, because it already gets a cut from everyone who makes money on the web with google ads.
  - elforce002 4y ago
    Don't think so. They are not happy with Samsung losing ground on high end niche and they're doubling down investing in their phone brand.
    - amadeuspagel 4y ago
      Yes, but not to protect the play store. Google keeps expanding what PWAs can do on android.
      - elforce002 4y ago
        They're doing it because it's in theirs best interest to keep the duopoly intact. Heck, even Bill Gates regrets not join to that party early on. You can rest assured neither google nor apple will let this massive advantage go to waste. It's really difficult to have a monopoly/duopoly in today's world. They are threading carefully not to make much noise and keep the status quo intact. Web is good but they'll be another fish in the sea.
AlexandrB 4y ago
> If browsers get great sandbox features and hardware acceleration with access to all sensors will there be a future for apps? Sounds like surveillance hell. Websites already abuse "location" permissions to scoop up data on their users. There's no way this pattern of behaviour won't extend to every other input on a phone. And you can't firewall an SPA from "phoning home" because phoning home is often essential to its basic function. Not that apps are much better in this regard thanks to the lack of user freedom on iOS.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  A well designed sandbox plus granular permissions resolves that, plus can’t you just not install apps/sites that scoop up your data?
colinmhayes 4y ago
> If browsers get great sandbox features and hardware acceleration with access to all sensors Seems like you already realize this, but at least on iPhone, they won't. Apple will continue to sandbag safari while banning other browser engines in order to nudge users toward apps.
pornel 4y ago
You're saying it a future tense, but browsers already have these capabilities. Apple just doesn't allow any browser engines that would embarrass Safari. There isn't even a performance gap any more. A lot of CSS rendering is GPU-accelerated these days. There's WASM and WebGPU for heavy computation, and it works, e.g. web-based Figma has become a $20 billion threat to Adobe's native applications. OTOH SwiftUI is still immature and a big step backwards in performance.
- JoeyJoJoJr 4y ago
  In the case of mobile web games, most of the perceived performance gap is due to game engines not optimizing for web experience. If you use a low level Webgl rendering library, or build you own renderer, it becomes apparent that WebGl 2 is capable to deliver a range of products far exceeding what currently exists in that space. If Safari just allowed users to hide the address/tab bar to play games it would suddenly make web games, of App Store quality, instantly viable.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    You can already do this by adding the page to your Home Screen. The real issue is the lack of notifications and access to sensors and device internals.

chrisseaton 4y ago

What really is the relevant difference between an app and an installed website using browser APIs? When apps were introduced it seemed like a big difference, but now I'm not sure it is.

rapind 4y ago
You should ask Reddit. They really really want you to use their app instead of your browser, so there’s obviously something (like tracking).
- alangibson 4y ago
  IMHO it comes down to push notifications. If you install the app then they can proactively annoy ... sorry ... engage you.
  - stevewatson301 4y ago
    Web browsers can do push notifications too, albeit they have to ask for consent first.
    - Shish2k 4y ago
      Not on iOS they can’t - iOS _requires_ developers to go through all the hassle, fees, and taxes of creating an App-Store App if they want to use what every other platform considers a “standard web browser feature"
      - tessela 4y ago
        This 'hassle' will change in 2023 - https://webkit.org/blog/13152/webkit-features-in-safari-16-0/ https://webkit.org/blog/13152/webkit-features-in-safari-16-0... https://webkit.org/blog/12945/meet-web-push/ https://webkit.org/blog/12945/meet-web-push/
      - AlexandrB 4y ago
        Meanwhile, in a previous thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33315308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33315308 I think website notifications in Safari will be fine for techies and others who use HN. But it will make many "normal" people's phones look like notification hell.
  - luuuzeta 4y ago
    >If you install the app then they can proactively annoy ... sorry ... engage you. I remember how I had all notifications and jingle bells on when I got my first smartphone back in 2015/2016. Nowadays turning off notifications is the first thing I do, and then turning them on for selected apps (e.g., phone, Telegram, etc). It helps I don't have social media apps in my phone, and whatever I use I access it in the browser (e.g., Twitter and Reddit).
pjmlp 4y ago
3D APIs, the best you can get is a PlayStation 3 like hardware, while on native you will get whatever the last version of Metal/Vulkan/DX 12 will give you. Don't expect ray tracing or mesh shaders coming to 3D Web during the next decade.
- JoeyJoJoJr 4y ago
  I’d settle for PS3 quality experiences on mobile web. Most of my side projects are 2D games. It just want to deploy them to web and allow users on phones to easily play them full screen.

elforce002 4y ago

Interesting. Apple won't give up its golden goose without a fight. Nor Google by that matter. Remember that Google is basically the one investing lots of cash with chrome. They won't decimate their android devs nor their huge investment in the android ecosystem. Heck , by a business perspective alone, they have +80% of the mobile landscape. Are they going to give up this edge just because? Also, the app/play stores sold convenience, easiness, and confidence of app installs. Gen Z basically knows how to use app/play stores to find what they want and there's an article stating they're even using TikTok to search for things. That part over there tells you where do you need to put your $$$. Bet money google is trying to come up with ways to attract that segment. We as devs have to be prepared for everything society throws at us. From improving our web dev skills to learn a mobile framework should the occasion arise (RN, Flutter, Maui? tauri probably?). I personally, as with Meta and metaverse as of this moment, don't see myself using web installs to mobile apps any time soon. Web apps have their purposes and mobile apps have theirs too. More diversification (platforms) is better.

amadeuspagel 4y ago
Google doesn't need the play store, because it already gets a cut from everyone who makes money on the web with google ads.
- elforce002 4y ago
  Don't think so. They are not happy with Samsung losing ground on high end niche and they're doubling down investing in their phone brand.
  - amadeuspagel 4y ago
    Yes, but not to protect the play store. Google keeps expanding what PWAs can do on android.
    - elforce002 4y ago
      They're doing it because it's in theirs best interest to keep the duopoly intact. Heck, even Bill Gates regrets not join to that party early on. You can rest assured neither google nor apple will let this massive advantage go to waste. It's really difficult to have a monopoly/duopoly in today's world. They are threading carefully not to make much noise and keep the status quo intact. Web is good but they'll be another fish in the sea.

AlexandrB 4y ago

> If browsers get great sandbox features and hardware acceleration with access to all sensors will there be a future for apps? Sounds like surveillance hell. Websites already abuse "location" permissions to scoop up data on their users. There's no way this pattern of behaviour won't extend to every other input on a phone. And you can't firewall an SPA from "phoning home" because phoning home is often essential to its basic function. Not that apps are much better in this regard thanks to the lack of user freedom on iOS.

endisneigh 4y ago
A well designed sandbox plus granular permissions resolves that, plus can’t you just not install apps/sites that scoop up your data?

colinmhayes 4y ago

> If browsers get great sandbox features and hardware acceleration with access to all sensors Seems like you already realize this, but at least on iPhone, they won't. Apple will continue to sandbag safari while banning other browser engines in order to nudge users toward apps.

pornel 4y ago

You're saying it a future tense, but browsers already have these capabilities. Apple just doesn't allow any browser engines that would embarrass Safari. There isn't even a performance gap any more. A lot of CSS rendering is GPU-accelerated these days. There's WASM and WebGPU for heavy computation, and it works, e.g. web-based Figma has become a $20 billion threat to Adobe's native applications. OTOH SwiftUI is still immature and a big step backwards in performance.

JoeyJoJoJr 4y ago
In the case of mobile web games, most of the perceived performance gap is due to game engines not optimizing for web experience. If you use a low level Webgl rendering library, or build you own renderer, it becomes apparent that WebGl 2 is capable to deliver a range of products far exceeding what currently exists in that space. If Safari just allowed users to hide the address/tab bar to play games it would suddenly make web games, of App Store quality, instantly viable.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  You can already do this by adding the page to your Home Screen. The real issue is the lack of notifications and access to sensors and device internals.